You're so stuck on it being called savings. It's clear Thailand only taxes gains and dividends on investments, the same as the US. Whether an account is called savings or not has no bearing on it. And yes, the paperwork I get from Schwab 100% shows that there were no realized gains for the year. If there are no realized gains then there are no gains to be taxed. It's really quite simple.
yes, assessable. Like I said though, you are confusing the need to report it on taxes and it being taxed. Those are not the same thing, as you seem to understand and state as well.
The part you can't quite seem to understand is that Thailand, exactly the same as the US, only taxes investment income (gains, dividends, etc).
Just like in the US I would show that the net result of all the trades that occured in that account did not result in any realized gains. Therefore the money I withdraw from it does NOT come from investment income. It is essentially the initial, already taxed principle that is getting withdrawn. Any account gains are still not realized because they are still invested. Whether it's the US or Thailand, there are no gains or dividends to be taxed.
it seems you may not know much about how capital gains are calculated at the end of the year then. You summarize ALL trades. Some make money, some lose money. You add that together for the total account, not just what is withdrawn from the account. My financial advising institution will look at how much I withdraw per year and make sure there are trades at a loss that will offset any gains on that amount. They then reinvest those loses either in a better investment or similar. Even if that investment then goes back up it is not considered a gain until it that new investment is sold.
I don't need professional advice to understand this. I know exactly how it works in the US and according to the link I provided in another comment it is the same in Thailand. Whether or not my withdrawals from that account will be deemed taxable income is not the question I was asking. It is not. My tax documents for these accounts are provided by Schwab, who I think may know a thing or two on what is considered taxable income and what is not. And again, thailand views it the same way.
My point was that I have a third account that gets funded with money that is taxable income and money that is NOT taxable income. Since the account mixes these two and is the account I use to bring money into thailand it is impossible to prove one way or the other if that money came from the taxable portion or the non-taxable portion of the account.
If they default to it being from the taxable portion, since I can't prove one way or the other, and the tax rate is higher than the US tax rate (it would be in my case) then I would owe the difference. Where as if i make sure the account i use to bring money into thailand is funded ONLY with the non-taxable funds (from that investment account) it would not be. I didn't think it was all that confusing.
ok. So we are in agreement. As I stated several times though, because of how my account is being managed they offset any gains and dividends for the year with other trades. This results in little to no taxable income on the money I withdraw. This is despite me withdrawing 5-10% or more a year with the account value remaining the same.
This is what I have been saying and is my point. I have two accounts, one with withdrawals that are considered taxable income and one that is not. That is what matters. NOT whether it is a "savings" account or not, which is what you were saying. It's not as simple as that. Even the little interest earned on some true "savings" accounts is taxable.
so lets say I took post tax money from a true "savings", say $1000, and put that in an investment. After 1 year that investment neither gained or lost value. It was still worth exactly $1,000. What you are saying is if I then withdraw that money that the full $1000 would be taxed? From everything I have found that is incorrect. Thailand, just like the US, only taxes income from investments. Which is interest, dividends, and other investment income.
"Investment income - Interest, dividends and other investment income are subject to PIT at the applicable rates."
And
"Gains derived from sales of shares are generally subject to PIT."
Notice how they only say investment "income" and "gains" from investments. What matters is what is gained or lost in the investment. Not the principle that was used to purchase the initial investment. As long as the initial/principle used to purchase the investment was already taxed at some point.
This is no different than how the US does it and I am saying that that money is NOT considered taxable income in the US and apparently is not in thailand either.
Perhaps you are confusing the need to report it on taxes vs it actually counting as taxable income.
as far as the US tax code is concerned it is not considered income since the principle investment was taxed when it was earned years ago. Whether you call it savings or not or whether I invest it or not makes no difference. They only consider the profits made on the investment as income, and therefore taxable.
The way this account is then managed in terms of trades, in order to offset gains, further reduces the tax burden on any money withdrawn. These two things results in virtually none of the money withdrawn being viewed as income. Whether it is considered savings or not makes no difference, what's withdrawn is not considered taxable income.
correct. It is not technically savings, but easily could be. The point is these two accounts have a signicant difference in how and what is taxed, and at what rate. The IRA only taxes withdrawals at the standard federal rate. The other account only taxes capital gains, not the principle, but does so on the entire account. Not just what is withdrawn. My financial advisor also manages it in a way to minimize taxes.
At the end of the year when I file the US taxes pretty much the only thing that falls under taxable income is what is withdrawn from my IRA. I end up paying virtually zero in taxes on the other account for the reasons mentioned above, despite the fact I withdraw and spend close to the same amount as I do from the IRA.
well its technically not savings, but easily could be. I have two different "pots". One is tax a deferred IRA (retirement account) where all withdrawals tax the entire amount at the federal rate. The other pot is an investment account that was funded with post tax dollars. The entire account (not the withdrawals) gets the capital gains taxed each year. I withdraw money from both of these accounts (which have vastly different taxable income) into a third "pot". It's this third pot that all my expenses are paid from. If this ends up causing an issue with how much money being brought into Thailand is taxed I'll have to look into how I move my money around so it's more clear and I'm taxed as little as possible.
unfortunately both the savings and taxable income go into the same account before being spent. At that point there is no way to determine whether the taxable income is used for my US expenses or is the money I bring into Thailand. This is where it becomes a bit ambiguous as to how Thailand will treat the money I do bring in. I guess I'll just have to wait and see, then make any adjustments into how I move my money around.
but I'm in a scenario where maybe about half the money I spend is taxable income according to the US and the other half is already post tax savings which is not considered income. I have expenses both in the US and in Thailand. In this scenario how will one prove which money it is that I bring into Thailand? The taxable income or the non-taxable savings? I think its hard to prove either way, so will Thailand just assume the money I bring into Thailand is taxable? I feel many people are likely in a similar situation.
I suppose even if they assume the money I bring in is the taxable income I should only be subjected to the difference in tax between US and thailand.Thailand.
Just one more reason why I try to withdraw money direct from the US at an ATM or put larger expenses on a US credit card and only bring in the requirement for the visa.
