Will my tax-free pension from Australia be taxed in Thailand if I live there for more than 179 days?

@David *******

I think thats a fair assessment 😃

@Les **********

Spoiler alert - Thailand have access to EVERYTHING under the CRS they and western nations are signed up to. Any request for financial information on you, me and your dog is granted under that agreement.

@Jeff ******

They have the means to do it.

But do they have the ability to?

@Les **********

eh??? Whats the difference? It's a simple request, phone call/email/letter,consulate etc I think Thailand has those.

@KO *******

”And it costs Thailand nothing”...what does it cost Thailand? What you spend is probably considerable (and most likely a lot more than Thailand would gain from tax). It's more than "a few bucks" tied up in the bank while you are here...

@Sammi *****

direct spending by expatriates and tourists is valuable, contributing to the tax system ensures a fair and sustainable support for the public services and infrastructure that everyone relies on. It’s about balancing personal benefits with community responsibilities. Many cats here refuse to pay tax and constantly complain about infra and services here.

Like I’ve illustrated regarding NZ, if a foreigner lived there they’d be obliged to pay tax on worldwide income and DTAs protect from being double taxed. Not just spending their living costs, no tax.

I am not sure why foreigners here in Thailand that pay tax overseas think they should be able to live here tax free and that by spending on living expenses they are contributing enough. Their own country would not tolerate this.

I assume that the original post is complaining about the visa deposit (800k) being tied up. Not sure how Thailand “gets the use of our money”, it is sitting in a bank….

We have a choice to be here, along with that choice come some obligations. The idea that I should not pay DTA protected tax would not be accepted in our home countries, and Thailand is not a tax haven. Want a tax haven? Go to one…..

@KO *******

As I said. the money spent is probably much greater than the tax, so not significant. Thail people who don't pay tax (and there are lots of them) are not making that contribution, so this whole issue is not really about community responsibilty but the financial aspect. It doesn't matter to a foreigner whether the Thai Govt or Thai Banks are having free use of their money, and tieing it up, they are losing out. To not pay tax on your super in Australia is not beause it is a tax haven but rather because tax has been paid on that money for many years to set up a retirement free of tax. I'm not sure Thailand will charge people tax on that super money in any case.

@Sammi *****

your rationale for not paying tax because it’s ’probably…..not significant’ and even locals don’t pay tax and I spend money and that makes up for it …… you can rationalise and justify all you like. But it’s wrong.

I do hope the Thai gov comes out with some clearer guidelines for us.

I’ll leave you too it. Have a good day.

@KO *******

I'm not sure why you think foreigners shouldn't be able to live here tax free. Happens in many nations. You didn't know?? Their own countries wouldn't tolerate this... fair enough. That's why so many westerners are leaving their own countries. They suck. I don't think anyone with finance 101 is going to put 800k in a thai bank account for no apparent reason. There are better options than that. And you are right, Thailand isn't a tax haven. But i'm going to treat it as one and pay no tax.

@KO *******

I live in NZ and will be moving to Thailand next year. I apply for pension portability before relocating, I become a non-resident for tax in NZ, my NZ pension is not taxed. The DTA between NZ/Thailand clearly states that tax is only payable to the contracting state (ie Thailand), I register and file tax returns accordingly, pay the tax due. I've done some quick sums and I'd probably pay more in tax if I stayed in NZ than the tax I will pay in Thailand. Given the fact that the COL in Thailand is considerably lower than in NZ my money goes a lot further. I'm not really seeing a downside to it all😀

@Todd ********

an LTR certainly doesn't exonerate you from 'all taxation' in Thailand - it limits it

@Jeff ******

mine certainly as I have absolutely not plan to work lol. I have the retiree LTR. So the same would apply for my wife.

what it does, is exempt all taxes on any income outside of Thailand.

If you are working in Thailand you will be taxed. I think 17% but I definitely won’t be paying 😂

@Todd ********

as you mention LTR, that is a serious challenge as the BOI don't consider Super to be a pension, and treat it like a savings account.

@Colin ******

BOI won’t count super as income. But that doesn’t affect the tax exemption. I do wonder though if the whole ‘super’ has been presented to them in the right way. But not my issue

@Koos ********

you’ll need 800,000 Thai baht seasoned in your Thai bank 2 months before and 3 months after then it can drop to 400,000 and start monthly transfers of 65 k baht or more from a foreign bank

@Bob *********

thank you verry mutch

@Angelo **********

well we’ll just have to wait and see been here 15 years and never heard of an expat being taxed on his pension tax treaty country or not now people working in Thailand yes

@Radost *************************

YOU ARE FULL OF BS. Chinese, as tourists, but not as residents. There are only 240.000 Farang residents in Thailand. Your numbers ARE WRONG

@Jeff ******

you can't combine it to visa as there are different dates. And money transfer has nothing to do with taxes. There is no way to check millions of daily incoming transfers. Because don't forget they would have to do it for every Thai too. There are ten thousands of thais working outside Thailand who are sending money to Thailand hundred thousands of companies who get daily payments the Thai tax office must employ hundred times more staff and this with knowledge of hundred different languages. There is no way to check anything.

@Radost *************************

not correct. It really is very simple. Under the CRS which Thailand is now a signatory to they will get end of year balances and various transfers for each and every account in any of the 120 odd countries that are signatories. What they do with that data I have no idea, but please stop this view that Thai revenue are a bunch of bunnies. They are under serious pressure to get revenue.

@Radost *************************

you are so fulla BS. I have followed you in different FB groups, and 99% of what you post is pure nonsense, is absolute BS. You maybe run a bar in Chiang Mai, but you have no clue about topics which are beyond your reach and occupation. You don't know sh.. about Thailand. You are an internet Troll

That’s not going to be a bad thing if it happens, swamp needs clearing….i was at the tax office just last week, and everything automated they have all my records, incl bank interest I have received on line, so bank no longer deducts withholding tax as they have my tax number…… but it won’t be an issue until tax clearance cert is required to renew LT visa, then you will see a rush to the exit……rest of ASEAN is not far behind this is a global drive to ensure nobody escapes…..I saw it happening in SouthAfrica…..

@Les **********

was published in the Royal Gazette last November in time for it to be law Jan 1st. It’s been stated so many times.

@Les **********

it’s already a requirement effective Jan 24, it’s and

@Michael ******

Stop scaremongering.

@Les **********

take your head out of the sand and take note of that ‘scaremongering’

The tax offices in Chalong and Phuket town are surprisingly easy to deal with, although is helps if you are accompanied by a Thai speaker - I was in Chalong last week, and not busy right now , (Jan-Mar to be avoided) they are getting lots of enquiries but they are very helpful, first step is get a tax number, ID and Cert Of Residence needed…..good luck

@Bill *******

Yes that’s my understanding also, but not sure how it would be treated in Thailand 🤷‍♂️

@Ken ******

I have sent that.

The Tax Agents are also looking for future business.

@David *******

All good and well. But you won't be eligible to receive it if you reside overseas

@David *******

Ok. So just to be clear. Do you or don't you lose your APP if you live overseas more than 6 weeks every year?

@David *******

In summary, you buy a boat, register it in a port in a zero-tax tax haven for individuals and there you go wherever you want on your boat without ever paying a cent in taxes.

@David *******

do you wrote Russia ? I thing no or French or Dutch or spanish then i Can explain without Google translation hehehe bye bye

@Francis ******

LTR is tax exempt

Thk y I have a beter solution ...

@Francis ******

no, you don’t :)

Wealthy Global Citizens are individuals who possess significant assets and an annual income. To qualify for the LTR Visa under this category, the applicant must meet the following criteria:

Hold assets worth at least $1 million.

Have an annual income of at least $80,000 for the past two years.

Make a minimum investment of $500,000 in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, Thai property, or a combination

There are many privileges provided to LTR visa holders, with the aim of making living in Thailand long term easier and less bureaucratic. For Highly-Skilled Professionals, these privileges include a discounted personal income tax rate of 17%

Long terme relation LTR...

@Todd ********

LTR what does this have to do with resident taxation Can you explain me thk y

@Francis ******

yes- and LTR ‘wealthy retirees’ are tax exempt on all money earned outside Thailand. It’s the best visa Thailand has ever offered

@David *******

Until you learn that as soon as you spend 180 days in Thailand, you will ALSO be tax resident of Thailand. And like everyone, they don't care a bit about your relationship to Australia. That's the big difference. Most people just haven't fulled grasped the magnitude of it yet.

@Paul ******

The tax program hasn't been implemented yet

@Richard *******

wrong !! It’s in full swing…….

@Paul ******

up until now. Thailand received the first data feed in Oct 2023 under the CRS. They are now a fully paid up member of the CRS whereby 130 odd countries AUTOMATICALLY share all financial data. Forget last year, the fiscal situation in Thailand has now changed.

@Colin ******

The CRS only reports the existence of bank accounts held an their balance at the end of the year - NOT individual transactions.

@Frank-Steven **********

oh, I may be mistaken. I read the following - ChatGPT 4o

CRS reporting. What exactly is reported

ChatGPT

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is a global standard for the automatic exchange of financial account information between jurisdictions for tax purposes. Developed by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), CRS is designed to combat tax evasion and ensure that taxpayers report their financial assets and income accurately.

What is Reported Under CRS:

Account Holder Information:

Name, address, jurisdiction(s) of residence.

Tax identification number (TIN).

Date and place of birth (for individuals).

Financial Account Information:

Account number.

Name and identifying number of the reporting financial institution.

Account balance or value as of the end of the relevant calendar year or other appropriate reporting period.

Financial Income Information:

Interest, dividends, and other income generated by the assets held in the account.

Gross proceeds from the sale or redemption of financial assets.

Other income, such as insurance contracts or annuities.

@Colin ******

Confirms what I said … reported is only the account balance at the end of the year … not individual transactions.

ChatGPT 4o

CRS reporting. What exactly is reported

ChatGPT

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is a global standard for the automatic exchange of financial account information between jurisdictions for tax purposes. Developed by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), CRS is designed to combat tax evasion and ensure that taxpayers report their financial assets and income accurately.

What is Reported Under CRS:

Account Holder Information:

Name, address, jurisdiction(s) of residence.

Tax identification number (TIN).

Date and place of birth (for individuals).

Financial Account Information:

Account number.

Name and identifying number of the reporting financial institution.

Account balance or value as of the end of the relevant calendar year or other appropriate reporting period.

Financial Income Information:

Interest, dividends, and other income generated by the assets held in the account.

Gross proceeds from the sale or redemption of financial assets.

Other income, such as insurance contracts or annuities.

Controlling Person Information:

For entities, if the account is held by a passive non-financial entity (NFE), information on the controlling persons of the entity (e.g., beneficial owners) is also reported, including their name, address, TIN, and date of birth.

Types of Accounts Covered:

Depository Accounts: Accounts that hold cash, such as savings accounts.

Custodial Accounts: Accounts that hold financial assets, such as stocks, bonds, and other securities.

Equity and Debt Interests: In certain entities, including partnerships and trusts.

Cash Value Insurance Contracts: Such as life insurance policies with a savings component.

Annuity Contracts: A financial product that pays out a fixed stream of payments to an individual, primarily used as an income stream for retirees.

Who Reports:

Financial Institutions: Including banks, custodians, investment entities, insurance companies, and certain investment vehicles.

Who Receives the Information:

The information is reported to the tax authority in the country where the financial institution is located. The tax authority then exchanges this information with the tax authorities in the account holder's country of residence under the CRS framework.

This process is designed to help tax authorities ensure that taxpayers are reporting their offshore assets and income accurately and paying the appropriate amount of tax.

Sounds like something that may catch you out one day?

@Charles *******

indeed, and how do you claim that everyone in all situations is classified as being resident in Australia and not Thailand?

@Colin ******

the term resident here should still apply even if you didn't meet Australias domestic law of tax resident. The treaty defines resident differently, you would always claim residency on both side. The competing clause of tax agreement is just priority ordering, you are not only ever have to be defined as a tax resident of a single state.

I don't know specific Aussie retirement/annuity types. What the Australian government classifys it as is the probably your more weighted option.

Given that this a new thing for thailand, applications of the law will take a while to be settled. There definitely still a lot of grey areas.

Superannuation is similar to 401k (USA) or ISA (UK) in as much that at age X, 60 in Aus, one can take the funds out and do as you wish with them. The concept is akin to a private pension, but with no restrictions over a defined age. Most Australians would term this a private pension, as do most Thai tax experts because it sort of sounds like a pension. However the Board of Investment / Immigration do not buy this, and consider more like a bank account. I've yet to have any of the Thai expat tax experts point me to any formal, or even a position paper, from Thai revenue. It is , IMO, open until the Thai revenue issues a position paper (applied for).

@Charles *******

I agree, and if you are tax resident in both states then one assumes the actual residency comes into play. I think that if one spends the majority of the year in Thailand, year in year out the Thai Revenue would have a strong case to classify you as being resident in Thailand, and thus your Aussie age pension, upon transfer into Thailand probably becomes taxable. As you may be aware tax authorities all over the world will make assessments of your tax and it is up to you to prove them wrong. I suspect in a place like Thailand that is very hard work.

@Colin ******

definitely no definition on specific foreign accounts at this time, it's possible in the years to come they put some general guidance notes though. There still a lot a grey area to pension, investments, and credits...just have to wait for how the RD will apply the law.

If you are shopping for tax experts, I would find a company that's been around for a while and has a good reputation. A lot of new companies catering to foreigns are try to get the most money out of you using preditory practices.

@Charles *******

would you also include Aussie Superannuation to be classified under pensions?

@Tony *******

unless it's already been taxed in Australia which is standard process

@Tony *******

what happens if you leave thailand stay in australia for 3 months then return

@Trevor ******

Thats not a problem. It only becomes a problem when the total number of days add up to over 180 days in total in a calendar year, then you become a tax resident of Thailand and you lose your tax resident status in Aust.

@Tony *******

i was going too self fund for two years

@David *******

Sorry David, I am not sure to what you are referring to

@Tony *******

It stinks.

Thailand get all our pension money.

And it cost Thailand nothing.

@Carsten ***********

Like what?

@Von *****

perhaps I should have been clearer, for tax purposes being a resident is the issue. Not 100% sure but I think it's any more than 160 days outside of Australia at any one time for tax purposes not considered a resident and tax higher

@Guy ********

yes, that is a much better worded explanation. Agreed. 👍🏾

@Andy ***********

whether you are a tax resident of Australia or not has no bearing on your tax status here in Thailand. Once you spend over a 180 days here you are considered a tax resident and your Australian pension may be taxable if you remit it.

Only Australian government pensions are not taxed in Thailand. Superannuation and private pensions are taxable here even if you are an Australian tax resident.

@Phuket *****

Totally wrong. You can be a dual tax resident and you then apply the test in the DTA to determine which one prevails. Retaining Australian Tax Residency means any pension is not taxable in Thailand. Further, any sums accumulated prior to 1st January 2024 are tax exempt

@Andy ***********

I’m inclined to agree. For me it’s the UK. I’m still on the electoral roll, I bank in the UK. Have bills I pay in the UK. But I don’t spend at least 6 months in the UK.

If people are saying I need to be in the UK for 6 months to be a tax resident then where is my tax residency as I travel pretty much permanently? non of which are really places for at least 6 months 🤷‍♂️

@Gareth *******

you're tax resident in the UK. You have significant ties and would need to prove the same abroad.

@Susan ***

Yeah I know, I am. That was my point, responding to people who were saying you need to be in the UK for 6 months or more.

@Andy ***********

not if he is living in Thailand and/or other countries for most of the year…. And you are saying that this without understanding the OP’s circumstances and situation. Seems to me if he lives outside Australia he would no longer be tax resident, based on the little information shared.

@KO *******

my best mate lives in Rawai and has been for past 8 years and is NOT recognised for the purposes of Australian Taxation by virtue of his permanent residence in Thailand. He is in receipt of a Pension as former Military hurt on active duty.

He pays ZERO Tax on his Pension to Australia.

@KO *******

aren't they like the USA. The government doesn't care where you live ir for how long, they want their cut. 555

@Frank *********

fortunately not Frank

@KO *******

If you read my original post you will see I said "IF you retain Australian Tax Residency" so I don't need to understand the OP's circumstances and situations. My advice is based purely on maintaining Australian Tax Residency. It has nothing to do with "most of the year", it's to do with each country's individual legislation, which is what the DTA is based on. I maintain Aus Tax Residency because it has a number of concessions which apply to me, and which I don't want to lose. I spend approximately 5-6 weeks twice a year in Australia and meeting the criteria I am firmly an Australian Tax Resident, so any pension I bring into Thailand is not taxable in Thailand

@Andy ***********

yep, Australia is self assessment, and you have determined you are Oz tax resident …… until the ATO says otherwise. How long ha you been doing the 2x 5-6 week thing for? I fully understand why you want to be Oz tax resident. Genuine question as I need/want to re-establish mine

@KO *******

I haven't determined anything. I meet the criteria. You re-establish yours by doing the same - meeting the criteria

@Lynnette ******

nope if you are a British citizen you remain so unless you can prove you are non domiciled.

Very important point because even if you spend 183 days in another country you may end up being taxed there and in the UK!

It's all based on significant ties in UK and abroad.

@Susan ***

I'm aware of that. I wasn't giving legal taxation advice nor the classification of whether British citizen or not. I've always done my own self assessment but now use an accountant. The full details are more complex. My accountant handles UK and overseas client accounts so anything to do with living abroad I would get further advice from him.

@Lynnette ******

you can be UK tax resident from as little as 16 days, UK tax residency is hideously complicated.

@Darren ******

my accountant has said up to 180 days is a tax resident in uk. I'm a resident by virtue of having an address, on electoral roll, bank etc.

@Lynnette ******

I would like to think your accountant's advice is based on your personal circumstances as it's possible to be a UK tax resident with far fewer than 180 days - well 182 to be precise.

@Darren ******

it's about legal residence for tax purposes. Doesn't mean you can't travel or stay away at other places.

@Lynnette ******

I'm well aware of that, I'm just saying that UK tax residency is far more complicated than your incorrect suggestion of 180 days.

@Darren ******

I'll let my accountant know. He manages a large overseas clientele.

@Lynnette ******

please do, I'm sure he's well aware of the Statutory Residence Test.

@Darren ******

he is.

@Darren ******

especially when HMRC get involved as they seem to make the rules up to suit themselves…

@Nigel *********

well the residency rules are easy to see, it's the Statutory Residence Test

@Darren ******

Correct. UK has a fairly easy basis of tax residency, but as you say, less than 16 days, you're out!

@Tim ********

why would he call them "john"? Do you get tax credits?

@Braulio ********

what a comment 🤦🏻‍♀️

@David *******

hi David, I know super is tax exempt in Aus when over 60, but when you bring the money into Thailand, who says it is tax free in Thailand? And I understand that in Aus the first $35k will not attract any tax, but at that level of income there would be tax to pay in Thailand??

@David *******

thats why I obtained an Australian professional to advise me. Suggest you do the same. Both the Thai and Australian advice was sound and the same.

You have all the applicable information in my post from actual sources

@David *******

David, the DTA between Australia and Thailand. If the number of pages are more than you can count maybe you have looked at a different DTA, as the Aus one is pretty light and explains who has the right to tax what. It's not that complex is it?

@Peter *******

unfortunately we are a easy target for the thai government

@David *******

David are you referring to federal / state pensions or private superannuation?

@David *******

tax free due to allowances in Thailand? I would have thought that the ING interest and Super would be tax assessable when the funds move into Thailand, assuming you are tax resident?

@David *******

the problem is that the current 15%Tax is paid by the fund, not by you as an entity so it never shows up on a tax return. Thus when you transfer into Thailand the revenue may see this as assessable income without any offset in Aus. The proposed additional 15% for amounts over $3m will be personal tax and thus this could be used to offset Thai tax.

@David *******

yikes! Enjoy Cambodia 🤣