Will my military disability pension be tax exempt in Thailand if I stay over 180 days on a DTV?

Jul 24, 2024
5 months ago
Jeff ********
ORIGINAL POSTER
So this is an intersting hypothetical having read the DTV requirements on the Thai embassy website.. Any insight would be appreciated:

I receive a military disability pension and as a result, am tax exempt in the U.S. If I am on a DTV, will I be tax exempt in Thailand as well if I stay over 180 days, or will I have to pay tax on my U.S. (tax free) income in Thailand?
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TLDR : Answer Summary
The question revolves around the tax implications for a U.S. military disability pension in Thailand while on a long-term DTV visa. While current discussions suggest that under the double taxation agreement (DTA) between the U.S. and Thailand, government pensions are typically not taxable in Thailand, this regulation can vary. It is emphasized that anyone staying in Thailand for more than 180 days becomes a tax resident and must file a tax return, regardless of the income's tax status in their home country. Various commenters recommend consulting with tax professionals to clarify individual tax obligations based on specific circumstances.
DTV VISA RESOURCES / SERVICES
David ********
All these comments suggest that nobody really knows the answer to the OP's original question.. As I said only time will tell.
Ken ***********
@David *******
I feel there are still so many unanswered details which is crazy since we are now in July of the year that these new rules are in affect. How do we act in our best interest on so many unknowns ?
Dave *********
@John *********
How many foreign residents are likely to come in under the Thai tax threshold of Bt
*****
/Β£3.2k/US$4.1k p.a., I don't think many? Thai tax thresholds are very low compared with our home countries.
John **********
@Dave ********
you forgot to account for the allowances you can claim which get subtracted from the principal before that 150k exemption so the reality is it is much higher. I would get to around 450k baht before I had to start paying tax due to the various allowances I could claim.
Peter *********
@John *********
go ask Alex mcbratney he will tell you the same Mr sheep
Dave *********
@John *********
What allowances?
John **********
@Dave ********
they vary depending on your situation but there are ones for health insurance, life insurance, being over 65 years of age and so on as well as the 60k baht personal allowance. You need to research which apply to you
Peter *********
@John *********
all bullshit πŸ™„
John **********
@Peter ********
all reality
Peter *********
@John *********
100 πŸ’― proof pls πŸ™
John **********
@Peter ********
the proof is freely available on the revenue department Web site
Peter *********
@John *********
yes but not been updated for a long time
John **********
@Peter ********
English hasn't been updated but try in Thai
Peter *********
@John *********
any what thai say ?
Peter *********
@John *********
can not read thai lol πŸ˜†
John **********
@Peter ********
your browser can translate
Peter *********
@John *********
can send link pls πŸ™
John **********
Peter *********
@John *********
not read anythink new ?
John **********
@Peter ********
the allowances are current
Dave *********
@John *********
Interesting.
David ********
It seems my comments are moderated by the moderator so I'll make no further comment. Thank you nice discussion, thank you.
Jeff ********
ORIGINAL POSTER
@David *******
thanks for your comments David.
David ********
These posts and many of the replies all seem to have a dozen different opinions, mostly all different!! all claiming to be absolutely right??????.....TIT.
Bart **************
Well first of all, your question isn't related to the DTV except for the aspect of potentially enabling you to reach 180 days per calendar year in Thailand, if other visas cannot (retirement, marriage etc.).

You'd have to check the tax treaty between Thailand and your home country. However, looking at the nature of your income and recognizing your country has determined it's not taxed, I'd be willing to place a firm bet on the treaty maintaining this. It'll probably state that this income category is solely taxable at the source, which in your case is the US, so their tax exemption would be in effect.

But, check it.
Michael *******
@Bart *************
I have looked at DTA between UK and Thailand that was signed in 1981 - it is extremely vague, does not talk about pension income, or variance between respective countries tax allowances. 40 years ago pensioner mobility was virtually unheard of, so unless there are plans to update the many treaties Thailand has in place, chaos looms next year.
Bart **************
@Michael ******
there will be execution and interpretation standards developed over time, maybe even also by mutual agreement, but it's of course not as transparant as having the rules all out in the open and clearly defined in a DTA.

To my understanding the Dutch state pension is taxed in Thailand, whereas other pensions are considered delayed income from employment and are taxed at the place of employment. The second seems logical but the first is not so intuitive to me, but apparently that's what they arrived at applying the rules as they've been agreed. (Obviously the treaty speaks of "country of residence" and the like, doesn't refer to any specific country, because all clauses work both ways)
David ********
In many cases, as the OP indicated his so-called pension may not be a pension but compensation from his country for disbilities he may have received while serving in the military. If this was the case it is not taxed and usually goes on forever. Australia and many countries are the same...so what happens if he takes his compensation/pension to Thailand?
Jeff ********
ORIGINAL POSTER
@David *******
yes, it is military disability, not a traditional pension. I called it that because it's income that I don't get taxed on here in the U.S.
David ********
Yes Jeff, I believe it is much the same for TPIs or part TPIs in Australia, it's not really a pension but compensation usually for military wounds or injuries, this is not taxed. My Father applied for a TPI after his service at Gallipoli in WW1 where he was an ambulance officer (medic) he always suffered from bronchial problems as a result of his service in the 8th Light Horse Regiment and later at Damascus treating Turkish emancipated prisoners of war after they surrendered (he did not have to be ordered he often said). He served in WW2, he was then in WW2 and claimed to be the only male nursing sister in the Australian Army, all the rest were ladies he would say and laugh, and he encouraged the patients to call him Sister Tom (he liked that). Many of the patients were US soldiers as well as Australians. Having a ward full of recovering young wounded soldiers and entertaining them was a very important part of recovery and a bit bull-sh-t was part of the fixing-up process. Later he went on to serve at a hospital near Paris in WW1. There are many other stories I could tell about Sergent Sister Tom Walden AMF. A country boy from Australia who was an expert at treating both wounded horses and men on the battlefield. He did get his full TPI at 65 y/o. He was married at 41 y/o Sister Tom (Dad) had 8 kids in 13 years. As small children, we lived near the army hospital where he worked and we were part of the treatment of wounded soldiers, they spoilt us.
John **********
@David *******
you would need to check what the DTA between your country and Thailand says on the subject, if anything. If its silent I suspect it would be treated as income (which it is)
Ally ************
There is another grey area.. regarding tax deemed to have already been paid in your home country.. in so much that in most countries your income enjoys a tax free allowance.. meaning the first X pounds or dollars are exempt from tax and then you pay tax on any excess income over and above said allowance.. so if the income is 30k and the allowance is 10k only the net sum of 20k is taxable.. however once this liabity is settled the whole 30k is considered to be 'tax-paid' since it has been assessed and agreed by the tax authorities.. but the resultant (or visible) tax credit will be for the actual tax payment you have made.. ie. the monetary sum.. and as currently written.. this is the figure that the Thai tax system will take to offset any tax liability in Thailand.. but this does not recognise that (in my example) the whole 30k is effectively tax-paid.. and by ignoring this they are effectively removing the tax-free allowance in your home country by taxing you on the total income.. which is completely unfair imo.. in fact the whole concept is flawed in its present form and needs to be reviewed.. otherwise they will sink under the weight of their own bureaucracy.. they should be focusing upon 'earned' income that has not been 'assessed' for tax in any jurisdiction whatsoever.. ie. that has not been reported in the home country or any other jurisdiction where an individual may have a home or the right of residence.. i understand there could be economic nomads out there that earn high sums from overseas activities.. but they avoid paying any tax in the overseas jurisdiction by limiting their time in said country.. preferring to spend more time living in Thailand where they have no 'employment' and consequently (past tense) no tax liability on the income they subsequently bring here to fund their lifestyle.. i believe these people are really the target of the new tax regime.. rather than foreign retirees that may have Thai families to support on (comparatively) modest income.. the easiest solution would be to remove all pensions and other retirement payments received by retirees living here from the equation.. irrespective of the overseas jurisdiction where it originates.. and only look at the income 'earned' by this group from gainful employment with overseas employers (or other organisations) that has not already been assessed for tax in the originating country.. and if it has been then the gross income assessed should be exempt rather than just looking at the amount of tax they have paid.. otherwise Thailand risks alienating many retirees.. not to mention penalising many Thai's who depend upon this income, in the process!
Tim *********
@Ally ***********
Tax "deemed to have already been paid" will require evidence, if you wish to offset it against tax "deemed to be taxable" in Thailand. "Effectively tax paid" is not the same as exempt from tax in your country. Read your country's DTA with Thailand, and/or ask the Thai tax authorities
John **********
@Ally ***********
any tax allowances you receive from your home country are ignored, you apply the Thai tax allowances (which may or may not be more generous depending on your situation). All that matters for the purposes of tax "credits" is the amount of tax you actually paid in your home country
Ally ************
@John *********
Yes that is my understanding too.. I'm simply saying it's not a fair system.. since it effectively removes the home country tax free allowance from the equation.. so you could end up paying tax on what was considered exempt income.. the only way to defeat it in the short term is to avoid bringing money into Thailand altogether.. at least until common sense prevails!
John **********
@Ally ***********
what do you expect? To be able to receive both your home country tax free allowance and the Thai tax free allowance on a single income amount? That's never going to happen. What does happen, assuming your country has a DTA with Thailand is you won't be taxed twice on your income, in effect you pay the higher of your home countries tax or Thai tax whichever that may be.
Bart **************
@Ally ***********
that area isn't so grey. If income is taxable in a particular country, the tax can still be 0. So the tax exempt bracket applies, and the money from that bracket is still considered having been taxed, and not again subject to tax.

That is if the double tax treaty appoints one of the two countries as the one where tax is owed for this particular income category. There is an alternative: treaties could also allow both countries to tax certain income categories, in which case it's normally stated that not the income but the tax itself is deducted from the other country's tax filing. In that case you'd effectively pay the higher of the two, whereas in the former case you simply follow one country's standards and are not touched by the other. So check which of these two strategies (or any other for that matter) applies.

For straightforward income sources such as employment, these treaties normally appoint one country for taxation, and then all the money goes only through that country's tax calculation. So that country's exemptions the tax exempt income bracket apply, and then all that money is considered taxed and won't be taxed again.
Ally ************
@Bart *************
Except some countries (like the USA) tax you on worldwide income.. and it doesn't matter where that income is earned.. the reality is that income tax is not payable under any statutory law in many countries.. such as in the UK/US.. and the collection of it is actually not 'legal' but is 'accepted' nonetheless.. the answer is to abolish all forms of personal taxation on revenues and replace it with a single legislative tax on purchases.. along the lines of VAT.. which everyone has to pay since it's a point-of-sale tax collected by retailers.. so no tax returns to do and no liability to calculate in-country or cross-border.. and nobody can fudge it or avoid it and no headaches for us or the tax authorities.. simple, clean and unambiguous!
Bart **************
@Ally ***********
that's an interesting thought.
Ken **********
@Ally ***********
this is beyond my understanding - I think I must talk to others in my same situation. So complicated!
David ********
Shayne Rochford... I am quite caplable of reading plane English, All we need to work on is to get Thailand to wite what is now facts and not beat around the bush. If there are exceptons we can just read what they say and implement it??
Dan ********
You sound likes it is no challenge whatsoever, physically or psychologically, to move around like that. I know many 45 year olds would gasp at your plans. I wish you many more youthful years 'tax dodging' your way around Asia πŸ™πŸ»
Dan ********
@David *******
yes they have written it, in writing, or print at least. It is your duty to find it, read it, understand it and abide by the new tax rules. I'm sorry i don't have a copy easy to hand. It was sent to me through this Facebook group a while back after I posted an enquiry. If anyone has, please drop a copy/link here. πŸ‘
David ********
@Dan *******
A present with reading and studying the Thai tax laws all I get is unconfirmed jargon and it seems the "experts" are in the same position. Like the song "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn? La,La,La. TIT.
Dan ********
@David *******
with all due respect David, you're very lucky to have reached 82 years old. You could just do a tax return and pay tax due on the money you TRANSFER into Thailand (we have no reason to believe that tax treaty's won't be honoured, and what is tax exempt in home country should be honoured here). You might forget to do a tax return. You might chose not to do a tax return. By the time they catch up with you, you will be in other realms where tax is no concern. But respect for trying to do the right thing of course. πŸ™πŸ»
David ********
Well, I take your point but I intend for the future to use the 2-month tourist visas exempt with a 30-day extension which seems to be largely what Thailand's objective is. Singapore, Malaysia, Bali the Philippines and many other countries have similar requirements already. I am blessed with, choices now 179 days will be enough for me.
Dan ********
@David *******
*capable

* plain

*write

*exceptions
John **********
No you won't be tax exempt in Thailand but that doesn't mean you will have to pay thai tax. Any income you bring in to Thailand while a tax resident becomes assessable for Thai tax and will likely have to file a Thai tax return, but if your country has a DTA between it and Thailand there may be exemptions afforded to you in that. You claim these exemptions via the tax return. Reading and understanding the DTA will be key
David ********
@John *********
...Most people whatever their income is usually spend most of it, many people often spend it before they earn it with credit cards, etc. My Dad you say often there are 3 ways to spend money i.e. "paying before you get it, paying after you get it. It is best to spend it when you get it". When will they ever learn?
David ********
@John *********
If I put in a Tax return in Australia it would come back nil. I did that for 2 years and the tax dept suggested that unless my income increases no return is required. Will that be the case in Thailand if Thailand and Australia have an agreement? Who knows?
John **********
@David *******
it won't be the case in Thailand. If you have assessable income over 120k baht you need to complete a tax return
David ********
Further to my comment of as we say in Aus putting the cat amongst the pigeons how does Thailand sort out the following situation.

8 minutes ago

I have several friends from the UK who emigrated to Australia some 50 years ago and joined the military and were required to become Australian citizens and did so. They have kept their UK passport still current and become Australian Citizens and were issued with an Australian passport. Could these people take 2 trips to Thailand on their UK passports and 2 trips on their Australian passports in one year? The mind boggles. Many people have more than one passport.

1

Reply
Bart **************
@David *******
like John says. Your identity matters, your passport is only a means to prove your identity. But your identity is the same, even if you have 36 passports.
John **********
@David *******
passports use biometrics as does thai immigration so it doesn't matter which passport you use they will know who you are
Shayne **********
Talk with
@American *****************************
who can explain what they understand at this time.
@https://www.facebook********************
Michael *******
If you are in Thailand for more than 180 days in calendar year (effective Jan 2024) you are a tax resident, and as such required to file a tax return - Double Tax Treaties exist for many countries incl Australia, US and UK, but this doesn’t mean you can ignore the requirement to file. How this will be enforced remains to be seen, but back taxes and penalties will not be pleasant. Folks on LTR visa are exempt.
Ken **********
David ********
@Michael ******
In my case and about 2,000,000 0thers living in Thailand do not pay any tax on their pensions in their home country. I seems to me as it is written those people will be liable to pay the full amount of tax in Thailand as a tax resident, my case $1000. Some modifcation my occur but Thailand does know now what they are doing. Cambodia or the Philipines also for
***
months may be the answer and back for 179 days to Thailand, good for a single man, that would do the trick.????
Michael *******
@David *******
it’s a good question and best asked to a tax specialist who can explain exactly how the DTA works, if the premise is that you must pay tax somewhere, are exemptions in your home country applicable in Thailand? The other element to this of course is personal allowances, they are much lower in Thailand than UK for example so will tax free remittances to Thailand be taxable here due to the lower tax threshold ?
David ********
@Michael ******
All I can say is HMMMM?
David ********
To Jeff Schott and others...My Australian Aged Pension (AAP) is $
*****
P/Y if living in Thailand and the extra $15,000 per year is from a retirement fund it is all tax-free in Australia. Will I have to pay tax in Thailand? I've asked this question on a dozen different sites. To date, no one has given me an answer. At 82 y/o I am not even required to put in a tax return. The ATO (tax office) in Australia excuses me for doing so. In Australia, I am below the tax threshold.
Tim *********
@David *******
Ask the Thai tax office
David ********
Which tax office.
@Tim ********
Tim *********
David Walden the Thai one, David. One near where you live. Try Google Maps, like this
David ********
@Jeff *******
...Then other options.I travel solo. I'm staying at LaCalista for a week from
****
/24 then other options, may see you around.
Colin *********
@David *******
from everything I've read, and I **think** that includes Australian government websites, if you aren't a Resident for Tax purposes in Australia, you lose the tax free threshold and *all* income including the aged pension becomes taxable by the Australian Government. Whether or not one would then pay tax in Thailand (if you spend 180 days or more there), would depend on the Tax thresholds of each country and where your income fits in. If for example, you were taxed at 25% by the ATO on your income and you're in the 35% tax bracket according to Thailand's tax system, then you're liable for 10% tax to Thailand on top of the tax paid in Australia.

A couple of weeks ago, I watched a video on YouTube where an Expat interviewed a guy who works for an Accounting firm in Bangkok, who deals a lot with Expats. With all the confusion among Expats this year regarding tac changes in Thailand, he explained very well how Expats might be affected, including some scenarios.

When you've asked questions about tax matters on "a dozen different sites", where do you mean? Facebook groups, or something similar? You're not going to get all the answers for your individual situation in places like this. Some people seem to know what they're talking about, but then say 'consult a Tax Accountant to get the correct advice for your own circumstances'. Then there's others that have read plenty of information on Facebook, some right, some wrong and offer their comments when they just don't know the facts. That's why the asterisks around a couple of my words. Speak to a Tax Accountant that is experienced with both countries.

************************************************
David ********
@Colin ********
Thank you Colin but tax consultants in Thailand who are competent with Thai/Australian Tax matters are a bit like hen's teeth. Ask 5 different experts and you will likely get 5 different answers? Only time will sort these matters out.
Jim ********
@David *******
Correct. And every one uses the same narrative

"might"

"could possibly"

"shouldn't"

"probably"

"Wait and see"

It's a joke designed to instil fear into weak expats who will not hesitate to hand over money for this "advice"! πŸ˜‚
Jim ********
@Colin ********
Surely you haven't been played by this "tax expert" touting for business, and a YouTube "star" that looks like he hasn't had a shower or brushed his hair for a week? πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
Colin *********
Jim ********
@Colin ********
My feelings exactly every time this twat steps up. Does no-one look at the actual legislation, or are they all sucked in by the "experts" πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
Colin *********
@Jim *******
I'm assuming that you didn't watch that video. The guy being interviewed is a Bangkok Lawyer and supposedly deals with quite a few Expats, helping them with their Tax affairs. I will agree with you though about the guy who owns the YouTube channel and his hair, but then mines not great unfortunately... we're not all blessed with a perfect head of hair.
Jim ********
@Colin ********
Look it's not just his hair, his appearance is very scruffy and unkempt. For me, it doesn't instill any confidence. And the greasy looking lawyer - well, yeah, let's all trust lawyers huh? "Helping" with tax affairs? Don't you mean charging a high fee by being ambiguous and coercing? πŸ˜‚
Jim ********
@David *******
If you retain Australian Tax Residency a pension paid in Australia will not be taxed in Thailand
David ********
But it does not say so in the Thai jargon. You really need to be a good bush lawyer at the right time and not be caught out. If all were like the Philippines, one month free on arrival, then up to 6-month visa by paying 1500 paso each month for up to
***
or 6 months and renew this way for 3 years leave the country and do a border run and start the process over again. KL Vietnam, Bali OK. You can live forever this way. Or you can put up about US $10,000 fill in a few forms and get permanent residency. if you like and stay forever. Get the same benefits as Filipinos.
Jim ********
@David *******
I'm not interested in bouncing around Asia. I have trips every year to Australia, Europe (various countries) and occasionally South America. I retain Australian Tax Residency so I don't pay tax in Thailand under the DTA
David ********
Well I hope you are right but it does not say that.
David ********
Although as in the past, I like to think my options are not limited (but they are). I have had retirement visas in Thailand in the past and many tourist visas issued in Australia. I was in Thailand Hua Hin for 2 months in part of March, April and May (dreadful heat wave for weeks) and I will be back in 2 months now perhaps for 3 months. before the new requirements came in. That's my lot now I do own a house in W.A. Australia so regular
***
-month holidays on arrival is for me for now.

Quite frankly it costs me less to fly from W.A. to Hua Hin And live 3-star on my own for 2 months including the $450, airfare than it does to stay in Australia. I am blessed with quite good health and still do my 6km each day as I have each day for 47 years.
Traceys *********
@David *******
i am also curious if Australian pension will be taxed
David ********
I expect some modifcation will occure in time?????
Ken ***********
From what I have read, under the tax treaty between Thailand and the U.S., government pensions are not taxable in Thailand. I strongly suggest you consult with a Thai expert to guarantee that is true for your situation.
Glenn *****
@Ken ******
not the way it works but yes consult a tax expert. The tax liability is based on remittance. Under the new rules, if you remit money into Thailand it will be taxed regardless of the source. Whatever tax you have paid in a dual tax agreement country, can be used to offset the Thai tax. Little or no home country tax, little or no offset. Hopefully, the powers that be will recognize the looming disaster.
Jeff ********
ORIGINAL POSTER
@Glenn ****
shut up please
Jeff ********
ORIGINAL POSTER
@Ken ******
thank you for taking the time
David ********
Yes Jeff...nice to look for the truth????
Ken ***********
@Jeff *******
we are all interested and affected by this.
Peter *********
No one knows how it's going to work at the moment
David ********
@Peter ********
It seems you are correct at being wrong???
Peter *********
@David *******
details please πŸ™
David ********
@Peter ********
Perhaps not wrong but as things are it is all up in the air. Thailand seems to be doing too much too soon for their own good. Yes, it will all take time I think about 5 years to sort it all out.
Peter *********
@David *******
ok agree with you πŸ‘Œ
Bart **************
@Peter ********
well many don't because we can't all be experts, but some of us do know these things.

I don't know all the exact details either though.
Mika ********
@Bart *************
what a sanctimonious reply - that says actually nothing
Peter *********
Bart **************
@Mika *******
I'm correcting someone who says that nobody knows anything (yet). Some of us do know these things. I'm doing so to actually help the TS so he doesn't wrongly believe that the answers aren't out there. I'm helping him better than just falsely stating what this replier did.
Radost **************************
@Bart *************
so you know it or some foreigner living here know it but the Thai government know nothing what a 🀣
Peter *********
@Bart *************
so keep quiet then if don't know details
Bart **************
@Peter ********
I'm helping as much as I can.

But I refrain from saying that nobody knows any details, as I know some people do.
Peter *********
@Bart *************
what people ?
Bart **************
@Peter ********
some have made their job of this stuff. Some have personal experience matching the TS's scenario closely enough to be able to answer in detail.
Peter *********
@Bart *************
you need post some actual facts πŸ’―
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