Do expats in Thailand have to file a tax return after 180 days of residence?

@ฉันเป็นทางของประชาชน ********

the point I'm making is that many countries are now linking up on finances and tax so Thailand knows if people are not giving them the full information these days , that's the point I'm making

@Jim *******

if thats your interpretation of the wording, then so be it, but i couldn't find it within the DTA. But DTA's are complex documents and I may well have missed it.

@David ********

Go f**k yourself

@David ********

I try to give you solid advice and you abuse me. Try pulling your head out of your asshole for five minutes

@Jim *******

I don't see that at all. Could you point me to the section of the DTA that stipulates that?

@Jim *******

that determines residence not tax liability. Needs to be read in conjunction with the rest of the DTA. There is a similar clause in all of the DTAs I've looked at

@Nick ***********

Not if you retain tax residency in your home country. For Australians anyone. We've got a pretty water tight DTA. We can only be taxed in one country. Your country might be different

@Nick ***********

yes you have to be careful on selling up and moving, with regard timing. Under current system making the move from July onwards has more tax advantages. The 150k bht is a yearly figure not monthly.. checkout the various webinars at expattaxthailand, very useful info.

@Jo *********

incorrect, it doesnt matter about tax residency in another country, thats why there are DTA's. If your 'Assesable Income' is less than 120k bht then you dont have to file.

If your a tax resident still in uk, you shouldnt have to pay tax here (as you have already been taxed), but filing is how this is communicated and credits used, and under certain scenarios tax may be due.

@Tony *******

well yes understand but I pay taxes in the Netherlands at 52%. As long as I am

paying my full taxes somewhere else I am not filing a tax return here in Thailand. It’s a waste of time and irritation for me

@Jo *********

obviously your choice, same as not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle.

@Tony *******

no not the same but do get your point. For me driving a scooter is an unnecessary risk, even with a helmet

@Tony *******

The mugs who are so excited to get a tax ID and file a Thai Tax Return have total freedom of choice. Those of us who have already paid taxes elsewhere and retain tax residency in another country will choose not to do so.

@Tony *******

yes the important thing to me is that I know I am not cheating with money

@Charles *******

I feel for you. Have you ever considered a Gofundme appeal? 😂😂😂

@Jim *******

I know this might sound strange, but i genuinely care about other people than myself.

This isn't trolling comment. If you have a different view point, I am genuinely interested in hearing it.

Let me give a real example, but change the names.

Tepa is from Pakistan, a much poorer country than Thailand. He has worked and lived in Thailand for 10 years. Paid his taxes and through his contributions paid the social taxes that pay directly for the hospitals.

Blake is from the UK. He worked for one of the largest financial companies in the world. He has never lived, worked, or pay taxes in Thailand. He came here on an extended trip for several months. Blake mom was thai, so he was very easily able to get a national id card and become thai.

If tepa and Blake both broke their arms, went to the same hospital, got the same care, tepa would have to pay more than Blake. Even though Blake is richer, doesn't live or work or pay taxes here. Blake treatment is partially paid by that the tax contributions from tepa job.

Do you believe that tepa and Blake are both paying there fairshare and why?

I believe the a more fair system would take something other strictly nationality into consideration. Using a residency based system is both reasonable and customary and would align itself with the UN civil rights treaties Thailand has ratified.

@David ********

Idiot 😂😂😂

@John ****

Exactly!!

@David *********

I didn't realize that. I haven't checked, but they certainly stamp when you return.

@Don *****

ok thanks Don

@Kool ******

Military retirement can come as early as age 38 if the service member completes 20 years of active duty from the time of first entering the military at age 18. Many Americans retire to the Philippines following 20 years of active duty. By age 48 one could accrue a much bigger military retirement with 30 years of active duty.

Proving the source of the military retirement would be simple enough.

Whether the person meets the financial requirements for a DTV, Elite, or LTR visa being under 50 is another issue entirely.

@Lawrence ******

I entered active duty on my 17th bday.

@Jim *******

We will see if that remains the case and I hope that you are correct. Just as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs provides guidelines for all visa types, individual embassies and consulates have no problem in modifying the requirements or interpreting the requirements differently. Oftentimes, individual embassies and consulates make the requirements more stringent than intended. Likewise, look how individual immigration policies for extensions of stay for the various categories of visitors varies from office to office, or for that matter within an office. With literally hundreds of local tax offices one shudders to think how these entities will interpret or misinterpret the national regulations.

But you are correct. Current tax forms do not presently have a box for nonassessable income. Hopefully, it will stay that way. Thanks for the heads-up.

@Jim *******

remittances are assessable income

@Michael ******

Not if they are deemed nonassessable by the DTV.

@Michael ******

Pensions are not assessable

@Jim *******

remittances are regardless of source, however a DTA will allow you to use tax paid in your home country as a credit in Thailand, still requires due process to be followed. Personal choice based on circumstances, with a home and other investments here as well as a (non Thai ) wife I don’t plan to f@@k with the system or pay agents.would cost me more than any tax due. Everyone to their own I guess.

@Michael ******

People who are shrewd enough to retain tax residency in their home country will not have remittances assessed in Thailand, as tax will only be payable in the home country. Tax credits are not relevant for these people

@Jim *******

I have tax residency in UK as I earn income from property rental, even though I don’t spend more than 20 days a year there, s I have to file there and that also includes income from UK pensions. I am now obliged to file here as resident under new guidelines but can use tax paid in UK as a credit against small amount of tax due here, as I only remit 65k a month which also takes care of my visa requirement. Having bought here last year, we don’t pay rent so live comfortably. Everyone’s circumstances will differ.

@Michael ******

Yes I understand the UK DTA is a terrible one. Fortunately the Australian DTA is a beaut! I have retained Australian Tax Residency and as a result it takes precedence over Thai Tax Residency so Aussies are basically in the clear

@Jim *******

You are correct.

SSA website confirms that tax returns are only filed for assessable income, not SS or retirement.

@Don *****

Hopefully, you are correct. But correct me if I am wrong. It is the Thai government and individual tax offices capable of misinterpreting and modifying tax regulations which will be the final arbiter of what actually unfolds, and not the SSA in the USA. Just as the embassies, consulates, and individual immigration offices routinely interpret, misinterpret, change, modify, or make regulations and requirements more stringent regarding visa categories and extensions, nothing is stopping several hundred individual tax offices from doing the same. You are correct, though.

Currently there is not a box on the Thai Income Tax Form for nonassessable income.

@Lawrence ******

Thailand can obviously change anything they want within their own country, but I am unconcerned about them changing their side of the DTA.

Which would be the only way they could require taxes on remittances of retirement money that has already been taxed and falls within the DTA.

But I guess anything can happen 💁🏼‍♂️

@Don *****

Thailand cannot legally rewrite the DTA with the US, as it's a bilateral treaty.

But your understanding of the tax consequences of the DTA are not accurate.

For example, the US gets first crack at taxation of Social Security and other income streams generated in the US, but then if Thailand's marginal tax rates are higher, Thailand would tax the income streams at its tax rates, minus whatever was paid to the US. The DTA only provides for coordination of taxation between the two countries.

If you are a US citizen and a Thai tax resident, you are going to pay the same tax amount in total (to the two countries ) that you would pay Thailand if you weren't a US citizen.

@David *********

This isn’t going to end unless I just say ok so….

OK

@Lawrence ******

If some Farang in the village is forced to file a tax return, they would be at the mercy of whoever they face in the local Revenue Dept. Once you are in the Thai tax system, it's almost impossible to get out.

@David *********

I couldn't agree more.

Under the Treaty of Amity I have been able to own various small businesses 100%. As a result I have filed both business and individual tax returns. Local taxing authorities are seldom up on any substantive or nuanced rule changes, well publicized or not. I have witnessed many businesses ruined by the powers that be.

@Don *****

so thats only for US retirees? Because all other retirees with pension income would have to file tax return and pay tax.

@Sue *********

I am unfamiliar with other nations tax requirements.

I only have knowledge about U.S. regulations and the U.S. Thai DTA.

@Sue *********

Australia doesn't have to. Pensions cannot be taxed in Thailand

@David *********

Never stated anything about going to prison. I basically stated that Americans covered by the DTV who receive government pensions have nothing to worry about regarding bringing in funds from the USA. I also sarcastically suggested that one should file a tax return, with the emphasis on should...followed by a wink emoji and a shhh! emoji.

That was sarcasm. Sorry you missed it, but then again, you are not originally from the USA, are you?

@Lawrence ******

oh, I'm a gringo 100%.

Also, I know enough about DTVs and Thai tax regulations that for the poor bastards that have to file Thai returns, most of the tax advice given here is either wrong or irrelevant. I would go into it more, but I don't believe that most Farangs will be filing tax returns next year

@David *********

not really , they just won’t be able to renew their visa, agents will be lining their pockets i guess, so another form of tax in agents fees 🙂

@Michael ******

there is zero information today that visa renewals will require filing a tax return.

@David *********

correct, but there is no other way they can enforce it , so it’s a logical next step which folks should prepare for - back taxes and penalties can be brutal. They will probably look at levels of compliance before deciding on how to enforce, thats why I am taking no chances, too much to lose, for the sake of filling out a few forms every year.

@Michael ******

you are applying logic to the Thai government. Bad move.

More likely, enforcement will be delayed. That's why most people can't even get a Thai tax ID right now.

@David *********

got my Tax ID no problem, having lived in Africa for 20 years understand 3rd world logic and it can also bite you in the ass 😐

@Frank *******

". . . renewal is not guaranteed . . ." Look, nothing is guaranteed, neither is your O visa guaranteed. If you plan to be an expat then you have the accept the impermanence and uncertainty inherent in that status. Yes, I am going to plan on my 10 year LTR status. Long stay visas change a lot less than tourist visas.

If Thailand actually does tax worldwide income, like the US already does, then that is what I will deal with. My Social Security is protected by the Dual Tax Treaty. I will remit my work pension to Thailand and it is exempt with the LTR visa. Any work pension left in the US would be a small amount and I will pay the tax, if any, on that small amount.

For health care I have a Thai policy and savings in the US set aside for that purpose.

@Marty ********

👍

@Marty ********

I think we can all see that... 555

@Martyn **********

??? Somewhere in here you must think you are being clever

@Marty ********

No mate... I know I am. Laughing at sceptics panicking over stuff is favourite hobby.

@Martyn **********

No panic. I just have a plan and answering someone’s question (not you)

@Martyn **********

you really need to stop talking. You’re showing yourself up with your abject cluelessness

@Martyn **********

like this guy. He studied for it. It's his profession. Now some idiot (which is you) shows up here in the topic to tell him he doesn't know anything. It's quite hilarious, you know.

@Bart *************

up to you..

@Martyn **********

The tax rule change came into effect Jan 1, 2024. It has always been the case that you become a Thai tax resident after 180 days. Don’t want to file a tax return? That’s up to you. Good luck with that.

@Marty ********

no... They announced it. Nobody has filed a tax form or paid a bean... The rich thai that its aimed at won't let it happen, especially now Thaksin is back in charge.

@Marty ********

But you didn't answer anything? You posted a load rubbish about something that hasn't happened and nobody knows what will happen...

Who mentioned rent? I said a SIPP (self invested personal pension)

@Jeff ******

a UK non-resident is taxed in the UK on UK sourced income.

@Lynnette ******

I'm not too bothered about your accountant and whether he does or doesn't have overseas clients, I'm merely commenting on your comment about UK residency and the minimal impact it has on UK sourced income as the UK retains primary taxing rights on UK sourced income irrespective of one's residency status in the UK.

@Darren ******

everyone's income source is not necessarily the same. And some lose out if they are no longer resident in UK.

@Darren ******

the over 180 days residency issue is about losing out for various reasons. You really don't have to be so rude.

@Lynnette ******

the 180 days in Thailand residency has zero impact on tax treatment in the UK on UK sourced income. As an fyi for you, you can be a UK tax resident from as little as 15 days in the UK during the tax year.

@Darren ******

you're still confused about my residency comment. So I'm not explaining further.

@Lynnette ******

I'm not confused at all, you're the one who is confused and clearly has no idea on how residency works from a tax perspective.

Frank Sykora I went to revenue dept toask about tax, they showed me a few completed tax forms by expats. looking through them There were other attached sheets from immigtation about visa status and listing all entry and exit flights, day, time, airline and some other stuff.

Assets held before the end of last year are not taxable when brought into Thailand so get the appropriate documents together to prove it.

@Bart *************

no they dont know because I have talked to three and the all said something different.

@Bart *************

The problem is the tax professionals in Thailand are touting for business where business doesn't exist.

@Jim *******

this is true

@Bart *************

have you just arrived in Thailand today.. So called professionals will robb you blind, nobody's knows anything.. Nobody's paid anything.. Nobody's filed any tax forms... You carry on buddy.. 555

@Martyn **********

plenty of professionals know a lot, no ones paid cos it won’t be due yet and no one needs to file until Dec 31st - you need to stop talking.