Are expats on a retirement visa required to pay taxes in Thailand?

@Brian ******

clueless , you really are an AH arnt you the law is in place and uou can ignore it pal ,go ahead until the day your deported. AMAZING HOW YOU INSULT PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT INFORMATION TO YOU. The ones who are proactive not reactive.

@Christopher ************

Facts and truth are not insults regardless of how bad your feelings are hurt. But go ahead & vent your frustrations and I'll make it easy for you and give you the last word on this topic. You can thank me later!!

@Brian ******

you provide zero facts or any information at all. Those that don't know information talk to professionals to get answers , not a person like you that disagrees without any justification as to why. You live in the past and your a legend in your own mind --- get well soon. Typical Yank ,,,,, do you even live in thailand 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@Rob ********

Correct. Every country has its own criteria for "tax residency" and the DTAs make the process clear for whichever jurisdiction applies. I spend around 240 days a year in Thailand on an "extended vacation" as I retain Australian Tax Residency and Australia has the claim in taxing my income, not Thailand

@Bobby ********

Quote me the Thai law that exempts people 70+

@Jim **********

You'll have to show you're bringing in savings that have already been taxed. It is a grey area, but it is live since 1 January 2024. Suggest you consult an accountant familiar with Thai tax law

@Jim **********

yes. Thailand should clarify. If I were planning to retire from overseas, I would not choose Thailand until exact tax laws are detailed.

@Hans-Georg *****

from memory its 120k for a single person and 240k for a couple filing jointly

@Marty ********

yes. This is the first year they have reinterpreted the tax laws to include expat monies brought into Thailand.

@Ken **********

John is saying more than that. We have always become tax residents at 180 days. It just didn’t matter to me and others because we could always claim that the money remitted was acquired the year previously. Even so, I guess technically, we were obligated to file a return with that reporting and claim. Thailand being what it is, I didn’t think about it and I don’t fear anyone is going to go back and look. This year seems different so I will go ahead and file even though I am here on an LTR visa.

@Marty ********

LTR is exempt

@Michael ******

Yes, I don’t think we are exempt from filing but I will know better early next year. From what I have seen so far, no one has seen the 2024 tax forms yet. I will file through a tax firm this for year and if I have to file then I will. If I don’t then I won’t.

@Marty ********

yes. I have lived here 18 years and will file a tax firm. If Thailand continues to increase my tax liabilities (taxing worldwide income), I will spend more time outside Thailand so that I am under 180 days.

@Ken **********

my issue is with supplying the information necessary for a tax filing. If I would still need to do that, I guess the LTR solves nothing for me :-(. Oh well.

@Ruth ******

paperwork for application is more detailed then filing a tax return. I was uncomfortable with that, but did it anyway. Just like I will file also, after being here more than 180 days.

@Ruth ******

LTR is exempt

@Michael ******

I know it’s exempt from taxes. The question is whether it’s exempt from filing.

@Ruth ******

I have an LTR. plan to use a tax firm this year to see what the form looks like. If it is easy enough then I can try to do it myself in the future. The cost of paying someone to prepare a tax return is going to be much less expensive than paying taxes if you didn’t have the LTR. The LTR is still a great benefit.

@Marty ********

if you have an LTR Wealthy Pensioner it excuses you from Thai tax on overseas income but I suspect you will still be expected to file a return

@John *********

makes no sense when the amount of not paying tax is 150.000

@Hans-Georg *****

that's just the 0% rate, many allowances can be removed from your income before you even get to that. In Thailand assessable income minus allowances gives taxable income

@John *********

My understanding is that it exempts us from taxes on money remitted into Thailand. What is left in the US should be taxable in the US. If Thailand decides next year to tax worldwide income then I assume the Dual Tax treaty comes into play and then we will probably have to wait an see what that means to LTR visa holders.

@Marty ********

money remitted = overseas income.

Everything will be taxable in the US as it taxes on global income.

Let's wait and see what (if any) changes come along before worrying about them. It's already getting a bit late in the year for changes to come into place for next year.

@Ruth ******

yes we are all on the "waiting and see" watch

@Ken **********

yeah. I’m in Vietnam now trying to stay under 180 days. Such a shame…I’d honestly rather be back in Thailand, although this is not tortuous.

@Ruth ******

yes. Da Nang is on my list for a few months per year.

@Ken **********

me too. For now, it’s a shorter visit (technically Hoi An). I’m trying to figure out where in Da Nang I want to be.

@Ruth ******

great minds thing alike. Chok dee

@Jim *******

some pensions are and some are not. Government pensions are.

@Frank *******

the LTR is not going to change.

@Jim *******

correct, but the law might.

@Jim *******

I did & it is passive. Thank you for the sample letter.

@Robert *******

Good luck 🤦🏽‍♂️

@Robert *******

Ask an account then, and don't believe people on FB including me 😎.

@Rob ********

that’s what I did. They’re all unsure.

And I’m not asking here anyway 😉

@Robert *******

I know what I am saying, I paid already in Thailand my taxes for the last two years, and my job was in the UK, I did following international rules and under HMRC instructions.

@Robert *******

it was published in the Royal Gazette in September last year

@John *********

Where? Show me.

@Robert *******

why can't people just look for themselves. Here's a translated copy of the order

Revenue Department Order

No. P.

Regarding payment of income tax under Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code.

In order for revenue officials to consider this as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand and who have assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code in the past tax year due to work duties or business conducted abroad, or because of assets located abroad, according to Section 41, paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code, The Revenue Department therefore has the following orders:

Order 1: - Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph 3, of the Revenue Code, who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad, or because of assets located in a foreign country, according to Section 41 paragraph 2, of the Revenue Code in the said tax year, and brought the assessable income into Thailand in any tax year, that person has a duty to include that assessable income in their income tax calculation and to pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand.

Order 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters of response to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with This order shall be revoked.

Order 3: This order shall come into effect for assessable income brought into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards.

Ordered on 15 September 2023

Lawan Saengsanit

(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit) Director General of the Revenue Department

@John *********

Thank you for that text.

I wonder though why 3 Thai tax lawyers told me that it’s not official.

Where is that text from?

I guess it is from the revenue department but not from the gazette.

@Robert *******

the text is a revenue department order which was published in the Royal Gazette. There has been no change to the law, only a re-interpretation of the existing law as outlined in that order. If your thai tax lawyers don't know about that its time you looked for new ones

@John *********

he didnt even apologies or thank you for providing link. Very rude Robert Heintz

@Michael *******

stay out of that. None of your business when and how I answer.

@Robert *******

Didums numpty

@Michael *******

Whatever. Keep your British BS for yourself. Nobody has asked for your opinion.

Get a life.

I have other things to do than sit in FB waiting for answers to comments.

@Neil ********

You won't be taxed in Thailand either if you retain tax residency in your home country

@Jim *******

why would retain tax residence in your own country if it’s a less favourable situation

I’m not getting into full ins and outs here please accept that as This has been my job for 25 years and I’m internationally qualified to do so.

It’s just here so many keyboard warriors not that I’m suggesting you are one but there are and then all sorts of peoples opinions rather than than fact.

Hope you understand and appreciate that

@Neil ********

Yes it depends on individual circumstances. Thailand is no tax haven. I have a substantial property investment portfolio in Australia as well as a sharemarket portfolio. Australian tax residents get considerable concessions on these such as tax-free threshold, negative gearing, CGT discounts and dividend imputation. It would be financial incompetence for me to lose my Australian Tax Residency, so I ensure I meet the requirements year after year. This also means of course that the Australian Tax Residency trumps the Thai Tax Residency under the terms of the DTA, so I would only be required to pay tax on money actually earned in Thailand to the Thai tax office

@Jim *******

very true and the ato is very strict with their monitoring just like the UK and US. do you also know there’s an offshore investment that is completely tax free for Aussies after 10 years

All above board and approved by ato just fyi

@Neil ********

My superannuation fund pension is totally tax-free as I'm over 60, and my investment properties are geared that I pay minimal tax. I don't use savings or cash management accounts. All cash goes into the latest mortgage, which can be drawn against. My shire portfolio consists only of blue chip shares, which earn very good dividends, all of which are fully franked, so using dividend imputation I get back what the companies have already paid in tax. My money is already structured that I pay minimal tax but I am accumulating great capital growth

@Neil ********

so you mean you don't do things in return for payment, possibly in the form of commission? Are you a charity 😉

Either way, you seem like you would be more up to date on current rules. Many governments have changed the rules since I had anything to do with it 😆

@Andrew ********

haha no but there are unfortunately so called advisers here who aren’t qualified at all and will give people the sales rubbish so they can earn big commission and the clients end up with problems. Proper advisers who have done the job in a regulated environment like the UK or US will give the right advice and earn from that and keep the clients and even get referrals from the clients

@Neil ********

I know exactly who you mean!

I worked in Bangkok booking appointments for IFA there about 15 years ago.

Could always tell the bad apple companies right away because they offered a commission only career path to becoming a millionaire...

The guys I ended up working for gave me a visa and a wage for filling their calendars and some kickbacks if anything big landed from my appointments...and they definitely didn't sell (but did help people who had been suckered) those front loaded commission products that...ahem...not sure if I should name drop...claimed to be the biggest global IFA network by selling...(Using a Belgian and Maltese issued financial services licence enabling them to sell some minor insurance products to legitimise their brand) 😆😆😆

How's the actual market there now for the IFA space?

@Andrew ********

oh I have a fair idea who they are lol.

There’s only a few good advisers here in all truth but for me the most important thing is and the reason I am where I am is that in the unlikely event the client has a complaint then in Asia there is only one independent wealth management firm who is part of a U.K. plc so there is recourse for clients should they ever need it.

@Neil ********

recourse was usually the emotional problem most people felt they couldn't get past. And we saw it a lot where people had signed up to 10 year products that the management firm got fully paid for within 18 months, so they just stopped caring... leaving the client with bugger all.

@Andrew ********

oh yes the investment products that are rightly not allowed in most regulated markets but offshore is different. I’ve only ever worked in the UK the most regulated market and my advice to my clients offshore is exactly the same just with more tax advantages now

@Neil ********

one of the ways I remember my boss telling me to check it was to look at how the product was set to be paid to the seller.

The heavier front loaded it was the more likely it was to be misrepresented to make a sale. Residuals are generally better at keeping sellers in line and therefore more stable products to work with that have better reputations.

Also check their financial licenses actually allow them to sell what they are selling when looking for work. Too many will get a basic financial services licence and represent themselves as allowed to sell anything and everything!

Little details 😉

@Andrew ********

and also they don’t have licenses they piggyback on others which means technically they aren’t even their clients. There’s so many dodgy ones out here it’s awful to be honest but one client at a time I’ll get there with doing it the right way

@Christopher ************

yep, and you need to be careful about what you call public sector too. There's actually a document defining what counts as a government pension and what doesn't

@John *********

agree , I have a private pension off shore in Guernsey and I'm too young for uk state pension for quite a few years yet. My money comes from an injury award from the high court in London and capitol gains on some that's invested

@John *********

I read all of it

@Christopher ************

I recommend Thailand Revenue.

@Jim *******

Thailand revenue department?? They are still not allowing expats to get a tax ID unless they have a work permit lol

@Christopher ************

And what does that tell you? Hey, I can help you. Go and see one of your buddies at this place and hand over 3500 baht. They'll get you the number that you so desperately crave! 😂😂😂

@Jim *******

you use these ?

@Christopher ************

No way. It's only mugs who want to throw money at scamming Tax Agents who use these. I've no plans to get a tax ID number. I'll bet you use a visa agent too? 🤣

@Jim *******

no I don't, I'm elite holder 20 years ,,,,, so you don't plan to pay taxes or register for an ID then big man lol

@Christopher ************

I don't need to. I have zero assessable income, what's the point?

Also come on then who do you recommend for your taxes in Thailand????

@Nicholas ********

up to you

@Carl *************

wrong

@John *********

could you precise the rules concerning the double taxation for retired people ? Thank .

@Carl *************

it depends on too many variables to give the precise rules for one individual person. You would need to look at the Dual Tax Agreement between your country and Thailand, assuming one exists. If it does it will be clearly defined there.

@John *********

I look at the agreement between my country and Thailand and the Dual Tax is well defined. Thank for your good recommendation.

@Roberto ******

thanks

@Roberto ******

that is not a very low income....it is perfectly good for living in Thailand....dont be so arrogant

@Gary *******

Thailand has tax credits, and a graduated income tax rate, so the actual tax amount on 28k won’t be too high. That is a spectacularly small income for an expat from a western country, and he certainly doesn’t need to worry about taxes. Any difference is small and more than made up for by cheaper living in Thailand.

@Roberto ******

becoming cheaper every day🤣

@Roberto ******

It's 1.2 million Baht, so 100,000 baht per month. Annual tax bill would still be about 170,000 baht

@Jim *******

thanks

@เอ็ดเวิร์ด ******

I think the OP is from Canada. They have a similar DTA, so if he retains tax residency in Canada he will not be subject to taxation in Thailand for pension payments

@Jim *******

not true statement

@Frank *******

I just checked the Thai-Canadian DTA. I'm 100% correct.

@Ekkehard ******

Correct. But it's still possible for a person to be a tax resident of two countries and the DTA would determine which country's tax takes precedence.

@Charles *******

Yes you need to read the DTA applicable to your country. I have dual tax residency and the DTA provides a "test" to determine which country prevails. I have closer economic and personal ties with Australia plus a permanent place of residence in Australia, so Australia is the only country where my pension is taxable

@Gregory *******

Thailand is talking about changing how it taxes global income. It isn’t law yet, but it could be soon

@John *********

A pension is a pension. I haven't seen any DTA which differentiates except for government employees who were working in both jurisdictions, such as embassy staff etc

@Jim *******

There isn't even a specific section on Pensions in the UK DTA. They're only covered under "Governmental Services".

@John *********

That's UK, but there's a lot more countries in the world

@Jim *******

indeed. But you claimed all DTAs are the same regarding pensions which they're not. Surely better not to mislead people

@John *********

There's a dozen "tax experts" touting for business in these groups who are misleading people. Perhaps you should start telling them to pull back on their misleading advice?

@Jim *******

so you're happy to mislead people?

@John *********

I'm not misleading anyone. Each individual should check their own DTA. Can you not read this? Which part of "taxable only in that state" can't you understand?

@Jim *******

but that is the DTA specific to your country. What you actually said was "Under DTAs all pensions are the same" which can be totally misleading for anyone not from your country. Why is that so difficult for you to understand. There's a lot more than just Aussies in this group

@John *********

US, NZ, Germany and Canadian DTAs are the same. As far as I know only the UK has the f****d up DTA (probably a relic from the Thatcher years!). So I'll rephrase:- Under DTAs all pensions (except UK) are the same. Happy now? 👍👍👍

@J**

you realise that says that pensions are taxable in Thailand if the person is resident in Thailand (i.e. over 180 days per year). That state refers to the state of residence, read it carefully.

@Ivan ***********

That's if you're solely a tax resident of Thailand. However, for dual tax residents you can use the formula in the DTA to ensure tax residency (and tax laws) remains with the country paying the pension, which means it is not taxable in Thailand

@Jim *******

if you meet the criteria for being resident in Australia, but this means you need a permanent home or habitual abode in Australia.

@Ivan ***********

I'm sure most Aussies will have a "permanent home" in Australia. Certainly moreso than any "permanent home" in Thailand (unless someone is silly enough to buy property here!).

@Gary *******

I have a double tax agreement as well as safeguards for government super etc. So I'm not really concerned at this stage. But appreciate your advise.

@Gary *******

Actually you're wrong. Whether you pay tax in Thailand or not is dependent on your country's DTA with Thailand. You're obviously from the UK so I can understand your saltiness. I'd feel cheated too! 🤣🤣🤣. I won't be paying any tax in Thailand next year so I'm happy!

@Roberto ******

Actually mostly right. It all comes down to the Double Tax Agreement which exists between your country and Thailand and whether you maintain tax residency in your home country, which I do, but others may choose not to. But it's all in the DTA.

@Jim *******

ffs no, you are almost completely wrong on every aspect. You are a tax resident of Thailand if you meet the criteria, and you don’t seem to understand how DTAs work.

@Roberto ******

I am also a tax resident of Australia, so under the terms of the DTA, Australia becomes my sole tax residency. It's you that does not understand the DTA!

@Jim *******

Australia tax rates are just as high if not higher than Thailand, is that what you are bragging about? And no, you don’t get to pick whether or not you are a tax resident of Thailand. It is possible you may not owe any more taxes in Thailand, but you will still need to file.

@Roberto ******

I agree you don't get to pick, but under the terms of the DTA I am an Australian Tax Resident, that's just how it falls. I can file a blank form and sign it no problem, but it's unlikely they'd want that as I'm not a Thai Tax Resident and have zero assessable income. I don't know where the "bragging" comes in! 😂

@Jim *******

after 180 days in Thailand you will be a Thai tax resident

@Frank *******

Correct. But if a person also meets the criteria for tax resident of another country, they become a "dual tax resident" in which case (depending on each individual's personal situation) the steps in the DTA are followed to determine exactly which country's tax regime is followed. Every individual is different.