Are expats on a retirement visa required to pay taxes in Thailand?

Oct 14, 2024
2 months ago
Clifford **********
ORIGINAL POSTER
Are Expats on a retirement vise required to pay taxes
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TLDR : Answer Summary
The tax obligations for expats on a retirement visa in Thailand can vary significantly based on their individual circumstances, particularly in relation to their country of origin and the relevance of any applicable double tax agreements (DTAs). Generally, expats who reside in Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year may be considered tax residents, potentially subjecting them to local tax regulations on their worldwide income. However, many retirees may not have to pay taxes on their overseas pensions, especially if their home country has favorable arrangements with Thailand. It is advisable for expats to consult a qualified tax professional to understand their specific obligations and plan accordingly, as recent legislative changes have introduced complexities regarding taxation of funds brought into Thailand.
NON-O RETIREMENT VISA RESOURCES / SERVICES
  • Go to the Retirement Visa Section for information on requirements, including age restrictions, financial requirements, and necessary documentation.
  • For immediate assistance, contact Thai Visa Centre directly via LINE at @ThaiVisaCentre or Email them.
  • Explore recent discussions by using the Non-O Retirement Visa tag in the search box at the top of the page.
  • Join the Thai Visa Advice Facebook Group to ask your questions, and get advice from others.
Rob *********
I think this video can be useful for some of you guys
*****************************************
(I think he is an American guy living here for a while)
Frank ********
@Rob ********
Canadian
David *******
Short answer for you to check, is only money brought into the country (repatriated) and put in a Thai bank account is assessed for income tax.

ATM withdrawals from home country banks and debit card and credit card payments/spending here are not classed as brought into the country.

There are a few good you tube videos that explain.
Frank ********
@David ******
might want to read this. Credit, debit and atm mentioned. Cash is best, but even than you might have to provide a passport.

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/A-Comprehensive-Guide-to-Expat-Tax-Filing-in-Thailand-Final.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3o6_oQmr7HthWqbXmgw8JmRen92NMffvP82XSnfB9QojbT9-9mgJLtuCA_aem_ZXhKoGXypU2GOT1r2z5CMw
Nongnuch ********
it depends
Mike ********
************************************************
Stephen ********
No. New Thai law.
John ******
why not ?
Duncanc **********
Everyone is required to pay taxes
Thomas ******
No
Chris ***********
Who knows ?!?
Ben *****
So every foreigner who brought a large amount of money into Thailand to buy property and who has been here at least 180 days for the year has a freakin tax liability?! Oh this is going to get good. 555
Jeff *******
@Ben ****
Correct which is why anyone shipping money in right now and prior to next year to buy a house/car/health insurance/veneers etc etc is certifiably nuts! whatever it's costing you, add at least 20%
Ben *****
@Jeff ******
I honestly don't think it'll happen or they'll figure out some exception. The real estate market is a huge money maker and this would alienate so many potential and actual buyers like the Chinese. It's like tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.
Christopher *************
@Ben ****
yes , but have a basic phone call with a tax expert as everyone's situation is different due to their own income complexities --- so tax liability will vary
Gary ********
Brian *******
Take every comment made with a grain or two of salt. If any of us knew what we were talking about, it'd be both a first and a miracle.
Christopher *************
@Brian ******
your wrong, for those that are proactive , much is already known, the ones that bury their heads in the sand will pay the price later
Brian *******
@Christopher ************
comments like yours are normally made by those who are clueless. But keep on trying.
Christopher *************
@Brian ******
clueless , you really are an AH arnt you the law is in place and uou can ignore it pal ,go ahead until the day your deported. AMAZING HOW YOU INSULT PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT INFORMATION TO YOU. The ones who are proactive not reactive.
Brian *******
@Christopher ************
Facts and truth are not insults regardless of how bad your feelings are hurt. But go ahead & vent your frustrations and I'll make it easy for you and give you the last word on this topic. You can thank me later!!
Christopher *************
@Brian ******
you provide zero facts or any information at all. Those that don't know information talk to professionals to get answers , not a person like you that disagrees without any justification as to why. You live in the past and your a legend in your own mind --- get well soon. Typical Yank ,,,,, do you even live in thailand 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Will *********
there is a move to introduce taxes on expats living in Thailand over 180 days - this will be on ANY income coming into the country regardless of whether or not it has been taxed at source.
เอ็ดเวิร์ด *******
@Will ********
Not totally true. Social security benefits paid to US Citizens is not taxed
Will *********
@เอ็ดเวิร์ด ******
- Currently If a U.S. citizen is receiving Social Security payments directly into a U.S. bank account and does not bring the funds into Thailand until the following tax year, they are not subject to Thai tax. Also you only pay tax above a certain level - e.g. the UK pension is unlikely to reach a significant tax level.
Will *********
If you have foreign-sourced income, you must obtain a tax ID number and file an annual tax return. These changes will come into effect on 1st January 2025 - If you live in Thailand for over 180 days in a calendar year, regardless of your visa status, you’re considered a Thai tax resident.
Faye ********
Consider joining this group if you have tax concerns when you retire. They provide a free live Q&A session (everything about expat taxes).
@Michael *********
is a CPA, an EY/PWC alumnus, and a 25-year expat with experience dealing with tax challenges unique to US files. US Expat Tax Lounge™ with Mike Mertz, CPA.
Michael *******
on remittances if you are tax resident (>180 days in a tax year) which is Jan to Dec. A DTA with you home country will offset against any tax due provided you file there, US , UK , AU and many others have DTA but you still need to file a tax return. Many will ignore but taxman never goes away if in doubt check with you pr local tax office
Phil ******
@Michael ******
only if you are stupid enough to get a tax id.
Jeff *******
@Phil *****
and when your renewal depends on a statment showing tax paid, who's going to be looking stupid?
Michael *******
Or until they require a tax clearance to renew visa then rhe agents will collect the taxes :- )
Thom **********
depends on where you are from. You are most likely have to file a tax return. You may or may not have to pay extra.
Ken ***********
@Thom *********
according to the new tax scheme, people from what country are exempt from filing ?
David *********
Well since the Banks in Thailand have shocking interest rates some as low as .05% i put my savings in a fixed term deposit in Cambodia earning 8.75% for 5 years and live in Thailand
Jeff *******
@David ********
Hmmm the cambodian banking system is just a single point from being in the highest risk category for banks! Sleep well 😉
Eddie **********
If you have pension or earn some small mony beside your pension. You normaly have to pay tax in your home country.

Then put the

*****
0bath that needed to have a retierment visa in Thailand.

And If you want to bring in more mony to Thailand

They already been tax in your country

So transfer Will be from your savingsacount. What is the problem.
Perry *******
NO
Kenneth *******
Depends on agreements. My retirement is not taxed. Any money earned here is taxed. Like interest on investments here.
Cameron *******
Depends, do you work in Thailand? Does your home country have a tax treaty? Are you bringing over large sums of money?
Glenn *****
The definitive answer maybe.
Drew *******
The tax I pay as an expat in Thailand is on interest in my Bank accounts.
Scooter *****
Yes you can put in to my account
*****
29 thanks
Otto *********
yes
Paul ********
There are a lot of companies who say you need to do a tax return going to make a lot of money charging 12,000 baht to do the paperwork. The last scam like this was the Millennium bug 🤣🤣🤣
Anthony ******************
Do you have an income in Thailand? Suggest you consult a lawyer/Tax Agent. Anglo-Thai Legal
Shellee ********
Maybe
Grandpappa **********
Rob *********
Easy mate, answer yourself this question, Am I living in Thailand more than 180 days In a tax year? If yes, you will pay taxes as everyone who lives in Thailand.
Jim ********
@Rob ********
Not quite right. If a person retains tax residency in their home country, that country takes precedence over Thailand if they meet the criteria of the DTA residency rules
Rob *********
@Jim *******
The common rule, as I said before , is pay taxes where you live more than 180+ days a tax year, but THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, I am not an accountant, and I do not know all the exceptions, I just tell my personal experience working as a permanent in the UK, and paying my taxes in Thailand, that's it 😎
Jim ********
@Rob ********
Correct. Every country has its own criteria for "tax residency" and the DTAs make the process clear for whichever jurisdiction applies. I spend around 240 days a year in Thailand on an "extended vacation" as I retain Australian Tax Residency and Australia has the claim in taxing my income, not Thailand
Bobby *********
Bobby *********
@Rob ********
i don't have to pay taxes my agent takes care of everything for me been here 7 years
Thom **********
@Rob ********
not if you pay income tax in another country. You probably pay the difference if the Thai tax rate is higher.
Rob *********
@Thom *********
You pay in another country if you live there more days than Thailand, I worked remotely in the UK and i paid all my taxes in Thailand, because UK and Thailand as a double taxation agreement to avoid pay taxes in both countries.
Bobby *********
If you are over 70 th you don't pay
Tim *********
Bobby *********
@Tim ********
i been here for 7 years i do know you ass hole
Jeff *******
@Bobby ********
Hands up who thinks Bobby has a nasty little tax bill coming his way...😁
Tim *********
@Bobby ********
Quote me the Thai law that exempts people 70+
David *********
Read all these posts, just confuses me even more
Tim *********
@David ********
because some people have their head deep on the sand and talk 💩
Phil ******
@Clifford *********
seek professional advice
Phil ******
@Richard *******
been here too long
Frank ********
@Phil *****
congratulations on the next phase of living in Thailand.
Mitch *****
With complete respect to the members here, the forum/members are not qualified tax experts to give advice in relation to your personal circumstances, the best bet for you is if you spend more than 180 days in Thailand then you should consult a tax accountant for professional advice and assistance with tax planning because there is a strong likelihood you may have a tax obligation in Thailand.
Keith *********
Don't worry be happy.
Galenus ******
Yes
Jim ***********
Wait until start next year. Unknown as of now
Tim *********
@Jim **********
It's known very well already. Transfers into Thailand from 1.1.2024 are assessable for Thai income tax. Unless your country's DTA exempts your pension, for example. Even then, any liability to Thai tax can be offset by tax already paid on that money
Jim ***********
@Tim ********
I don't have pension live on taxed savings. I'm a grey area I think
Tim *********
@Jim **********
You'll have to show you're bringing in savings that have already been taxed. It is a grey area, but it is live since 1 January 2024. Suggest you consult an accountant familiar with Thai tax law
Jeff *******
@Tim ********
Absoulty impossible to do. How would anyone know if the bundle of cash you have in your suitcase is from a taxed savings account or a columbian shipment of coke?
Tim *********
@Jeff ******
The onus is on you to demonstrate you have already paid tax in another country. If you cannot, then there is nothing to offset the Thai income tax due on it
Jeff *******
@Tim ********
Yes I understand that, but think through my scenario, its just impossible to do. Further example, you legitimately take out your taxed savings, walk into a casino and put it on red and black comes up. It's gone. You then do your columbian drug deal which goes well, and you bring that cash in and say its from your savings. Looks legit right? There is just no way you can prove a funds source.
Tim *********
@Jeff ******
I don't need to think it through, Jeff, as I won't be doing drugs deals or gambling. More fool anyone who does. Fact remains, money you bring into Thailand is taxable if you're here 180 days plus. The only way to reduce the tax payable is to show you've already paid tax at home.
Jeff *******
@Tim ********
Clearly, or so I thought, I was being hypothetical! 🙈
Ken ***********
@Jim **********
but if we are currently under new tax interpretation, shouldn't all the details be available ?
Jim ***********
@Ken **********
they don't know as of yet. Heard different things regarding tax. It's for thais working abroad, under 2 MB sent here won't be touched... wait and see is best. Say guy married Issan has kids, visa due renewal January. Nobody has tax number yet, they gona deport him ? Cancel visa ? I have feeling not much will change. I could be wrong though. Nobody knows
Ken ***********
@Jim **********
yes. Thailand should clarify. If I were planning to retire from overseas, I would not choose Thailand until exact tax laws are detailed.
Peter *********
No
Gregory ********
All depends on personal circumstances but nothing to do with type of Visa—180 days or more in Thailand—everybody has different circumstances—so best consult a tax consultant
Marty *********
Like many have said, it depends. Another aspect to this question is, even if you will not have to pay taxes will you still have to file tax return?
Michael *******
John **********
@Marty ********
if you have assessable income you have to file a tax return, whether you have to pay tax or not
Hans-Georg ******
@John *********
yes assessable income of > 200.000 Baht.
John **********
@Hans-Georg *****
from memory its 120k for a single person and 240k for a couple filing jointly
Marty *********
@John *********
Fine. I’ve been retired here 7 years and this year is the first time to hear this mainly because no one was discussing taxes before and I have never earned income in Thailand. I will do it this time with the aid of a tax firm.
Ken ***********
@Marty ********
yes. This is the first year they have reinterpreted the tax laws to include expat monies brought into Thailand.
Marty *********
@Ken **********
John is saying more than that. We have always become tax residents at 180 days. It just didn’t matter to me and others because we could always claim that the money remitted was acquired the year previously. Even so, I guess technically, we were obligated to file a return with that reporting and claim. Thailand being what it is, I didn’t think about it and I don’t fear anyone is going to go back and look. This year seems different so I will go ahead and file even though I am here on an LTR visa.
Michael *******
@Marty ********
LTR is exempt
Marty *********
@Michael ******
Yes, I don’t think we are exempt from filing but I will know better early next year. From what I have seen so far, no one has seen the 2024 tax forms yet. I will file through a tax firm this for year and if I have to file then I will. If I don’t then I won’t.
Ken ***********
@Marty ********
yes. I have lived here 18 years and will file a tax firm. If Thailand continues to increase my tax liabilities (taxing worldwide income), I will spend more time outside Thailand so that I am under 180 days.
Ruth *******
@Ken **********
my issue is with supplying the information necessary for a tax filing. If I would still need to do that, I guess the LTR solves nothing for me :-(. Oh well.
Frank ********
@Ruth ******
paperwork for application is more detailed then filing a tax return. I was uncomfortable with that, but did it anyway. Just like I will file also, after being here more than 180 days.
Michael *******
@Ruth ******
LTR is exempt
Ruth *******
@Michael ******
I know it’s exempt from taxes. The question is whether it’s exempt from filing.
Marty *********
@Ruth ******
I have an LTR. plan to use a tax firm this year to see what the form looks like. If it is easy enough then I can try to do it myself in the future. The cost of paying someone to prepare a tax return is going to be much less expensive than paying taxes if you didn’t have the LTR. The LTR is still a great benefit.
John **********
@Marty ********
if you have an LTR Wealthy Pensioner it excuses you from Thai tax on overseas income but I suspect you will still be expected to file a return
Hans-Georg ******
@John *********
makes no sense when the amount of not paying tax is 150.000
John **********
@Hans-Georg *****
that's just the 0% rate, many allowances can be removed from your income before you even get to that. In Thailand assessable income minus allowances gives taxable income
Marty *********
@John *********
My understanding is that it exempts us from taxes on money remitted into Thailand. What is left in the US should be taxable in the US. If Thailand decides next year to tax worldwide income then I assume the Dual Tax treaty comes into play and then we will probably have to wait an see what that means to LTR visa holders.
John **********
@Marty ********
money remitted = overseas income.

Everything will be taxable in the US as it taxes on global income.

Let's wait and see what (if any) changes come along before worrying about them. It's already getting a bit late in the year for changes to come into place for next year.
Ken ***********
@Ruth ******
yes we are all on the "waiting and see" watch
Ruth *******
@Ken **********
yeah. I’m in Vietnam now trying to stay under 180 days. Such a shame…I’d honestly rather be back in Thailand, although this is not tortuous.
Ken ***********
@Ruth ******
yes. Da Nang is on my list for a few months per year.
Ruth *******
@Ken **********
me too. For now, it’s a shorter visit (technically Hoi An). I’m trying to figure out where in Da Nang I want to be.
Ken ***********
@Ruth ******
great minds thing alike. Chok dee
Jason ********
Depends what country you’re from
Paul ********
@Jason *******
also depends if you pay tax in that country. Some work oil and gas pay no tax and this is going to kill them as they have never paid tax
Paul ***************
Only falang tax
Jim ********
Depends on which visa.
@LTR **************************
is exempt from overseas income.
Frank ********
@Jim *******
subject to change.
Jim ********
@Frank *******
actually there is a tax agreement with the USA to not double tax pensions. It’s not going to change.
Frank ********
@Jim *******
some pensions are and some are not. Government pensions are.
Jim ********
@Frank *******
the LTR is not going to change.
Frank ********
@Jim *******
correct, but the law might.
Ruth *******
@Jim *******
this is what I want, but they won’t answer my questions about my form of unearned income :-( and I don’t want to make any investments at this time.
Jim ********
@Ruth ******
I also used a cover letter with attachments to explain my income.
Ruth *******
@Jim *******
I did & it is passive. Thank you for the sample letter.
Jim ********
@Ruth ******
did you email the BOI and ask? For the LTR-P it must be passive income.

**********************
Jim *****
@Jim *******
Exemption apply to all income earned active and passive in home country for LTR/W pensioner??
Frank ********
@Jim ****
subject to change
Jim ********
@Jim ****
yes I presume you aren’t wanting to work in Thailand if you are a pensioner?
Hector *********
Not sure but If your money is earned outside Thailand works you have to pay Thai tax ?

Maybe also depends on your residency status surely people on here will no .
Grie *********
Peter **********
********************************************
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*****
*****
*****
/
Robert ********
Right now: no / almost not.

Reason: the money that one brings into the country is only taxed if it was earned the same year. And who can prove that you haven’t earned the money last year if you get it on an outside account.

Plus: many countries have agreements with T. Look it up on your country’s embassy’s homepage.

Next year. Probably everybody yes.

Because the rule of “same year” will probably be dropped as it is used by many rich Thais to circumvent tax paying.

Let’s hope there will be a “retirement exemption “.
Christopher *************
@Robert *******
right now yes since 1st January 2024
Tim *********
@Robert *******
nonsense, out of date.
Robert ********
@Tim ********
You’re wrong.

This is in discussion as long as it isn’t published in the royal gazette.
Jeff *******
Tim *********
@Robert *******
Good luck 🤦🏽‍♂️
Rob *********
@Robert *******
this is incorrect, you pay taxes for all the money your bring to Thai regardless the year you made the money (started in 2024) there are some exceptions, for this reason better ask an accountant advisor.
Robert ********
@Rob ********
You’re wrong.

This is in discussion as long as it isn’t published in the royal gazette.
Rob *********
@Robert *******
Ask an account then, and don't believe people on FB including me 😎.
Robert ********
@Rob ********
that’s what I did. They’re all unsure.

And I’m not asking here anyway 😉
Rob *********
@Robert *******
I know what I am saying, I paid already in Thailand my taxes for the last two years, and my job was in the UK, I did following international rules and under HMRC instructions.
John **********
@Robert *******
the same year rule has already been dropped
Robert ********
@John *********
It still isnt in the royal gazette. That’s why even experts don’t know what to tell us.
John **********
@Robert *******
it was published in the Royal Gazette in September last year
Robert ********
@John *********
Where? Show me.
John **********
@Robert *******
why can't people just look for themselves. Here's a translated copy of the order

Revenue Department Order

No. P.
********


Regarding payment of income tax under Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code.

In order for revenue officials to consider this as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand and who have assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code in the past tax year due to work duties or business conducted abroad, or because of assets located abroad, according to Section 41, paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code, The Revenue Department therefore has the following orders:

Order 1: - Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph 3, of the Revenue Code, who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad, or because of assets located in a foreign country, according to Section 41 paragraph 2, of the Revenue Code in the said tax year, and brought the assessable income into Thailand in any tax year, that person has a duty to include that assessable income in their income tax calculation and to pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand.

Order 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters of response to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with This order shall be revoked.

Order 3: This order shall come into effect for assessable income brought into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards.

Ordered on 15 September 2023

Lawan Saengsanit

(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit) Director General of the Revenue Department
Robert ********
@John *********
Thank you for that text.

I wonder though why 3 Thai tax lawyers told me that it’s not official.

Where is that text from?

I guess it is from the revenue department but not from the gazette.
John **********
@Robert *******
the text is a revenue department order which was published in the Royal Gazette. There has been no change to the law, only a re-interpretation of the existing law as outlined in that order. If your thai tax lawyers don't know about that its time you looked for new ones
Michael ********
@John *********
he didnt even apologies or thank you for providing link. Very rude Robert Heintz
Robert ********
@Michael *******
stay out of that. None of your business when and how I answer.
Michael ********
@Robert *******
Didums numpty
Robert ********
@Michael *******
Whatever. Keep your British BS for yourself. Nobody has asked for your opinion.

Get a life.

I have other things to do than sit in FB waiting for answers to comments.
Neil *********
Hi. It depends on your country and the detail of the double taxation agreement that they have with Thailand.

For example US citizens and their social security are covered under the agreement with the US, however my country the UK as per typical government they only made sure that government pensions are covered and private ones are not covered.

I’m a U.K. qualified independent financial adviser who lives and works here, have been uk qualified for 25 years.

Also this will depend finally on the legislation that they are finalising now here which the head of the revenue department has said will be taxing on worldwide income.

So ignore it you see people spouting off no it’s not etc. this is coming and there is no escaping it, having a proper qualified individual can make all the difference with clever tax planning.
David *******
@Neil ********
it's in your SELF INTEREST to argue for professional advisers when that's what you're selling ! It isn't about number of days in Thailand per se. It's about exceeding 179 days in a CALENDAR year. I've been here since mid July. I'm outta here in mid March (ticket bought) and I refused to succumb to pressure to open a Thai bank account. Not 180 days in a calendar year and no Thai bank account...on what basis can I be taxed on my own fxckin savings from taxed income over thirty years?!!
Neil *********
@David ******
ok firstly I’m not selling anything. Secondly yes you are right it is about being classed as a tax resident and that does involve 180 days in a calendar year. You don’t need to open a Thai bank account and you can’t be taxed here if you don’t exceed the 180 days a year correct. However the majority of people do fall into that category
Jim ********
@Neil ********
You won't be taxed in Thailand either if you retain tax residency in your home country
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
The tax bands in Thailand are lower and the tax allowances are far more generous, so why would you want to retain it?
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
Would the Thai Tax Office negative gear my investment properties? Would they refund me the thousands of dollars I get every year in dividend imputation from my share portfolio? Do Thailand give a 50% reduction in CGT? The tax free threshold in Thailand is 150,000 baht. In Australia it's the equivalent of 400,000 baht. I don't know who your financial advisor is, but if I was you I'd be dumping him!
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
So you've picked on the tax free allowance but swerved the very large list of allowances which dwarfs the UK pittance. Doesn't a 50% CGT discount mean you're paying a 50% CGT charge?
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
Not quite sure what the UK has to do with Australian property investment?
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
It's more to do with the OP's post before it got taken off course
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
The OP didn't give enough background for a decent answer. I simply said that retaining tax residency in another country with a DTA could well mean a person isn't assessable in Thailand. Again, it depends on individual circumstances. In my case I'm intent on retaining Australian Tax Residency as losing it would be financially disastrous for me because of my investment strategies
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
What is going to be fascinating is the culmination of 200+ DTA's converging on Thailand at once and the general public expecting Thailand to have them nailed. I doubt a single days seminar has been set up to help them. Also I don't know when the Australian tax year end is but in the UK it is April, when you would receive proof you have paid tax on your income. However that date in Thailand is December, meaning for January, February and March you won't be able to prove any tax paid in your home country to the thai tax office. If as I suspect, tax dues will be tied to visa extensions, I just can't see any other way of enforcement, then that is going to be a car crash, possibly with the thais, snowed under by expats coming at them from all angles clutching different DTA's, demanding you cough up in order to obtain your extension and then when proof arrives claim it back! I think it's bordering on extreme optimism for anyone thinking their countries DTA is going to get you through the fog. Picture the scene, someone rolls up a Madagascan native and the thais are supposed to know the details of the Thailand/Madagascan DTA? No chance. The sheer complexity of this may make them just shelve it, who knows.
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
I think there's only 61 DTAs, but they've been in force since the 1980s, so they've been applied since then. I really don't know where all this "proof" is coming from. I won't be filing a tax return in Thailand as I'm solely an Australian Tax Resident, so what "proof" is required. As with any country with self-assessment tax returns, no proof is required of anything unless audited. Tax has nothing to do with visa extensions. So many people use the embassy affidavit method, so many use agents (that'll be interesting - expats having to explain the 800k mysteriously appearing and disappearing in their bank accounts 😂😂). Sadly so many people have been sucked right into this (and from your posts I think you're one of them!). Nothing is going to happen. If you're silly enough to so desperately desire a Thai Tax ID - go for it! And file your return! I won't be doing either, and when the auditors come knocking (which they won't), with a flourish I'll produce the DTA with the relevant sections highlighted, and send them on their way!!
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
lol 'send them on their way' - I think you might be new here. But you don't seem to be grasping, they don't have to come to you, at least once a year you have to go to them. The annual extensions mean we're a captive audience for compliance purposes. It would be the simplest thing in the world to tie tax to extensions. It doesn't take Stephen Hawkins to see how. You go to immigration and they ask for a statement from your bank showing all monies sent from abroad and an accompanying tax receipt. Similarly to the credit advice, just another piece of paper from the bank to say Joe Bloggs shipped it 'x' baht in the last 12 months. Tick that box, extension granted, fail to tick it off you either go and get it or no extension. I haven't been sucked into anything, IF this comes to fruition I'm already aware of roughly how much it would mean to me, and it's not enough to keep me awake, but for those, like yourself who think you're going to spend more than 180 days here and be immune to the tax spotlight at some point, I still maintain at extension time, are dreaming. We shall see.
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
If you're from the UK I feel for you. But not everybody is from a country which has sold out its own citizens! Read article 3(a) of the Australian DTA. I'm dual tax resident, but Australia takes the prize. Therefore I am NOT a Thai Tax Resident, and can easily get a letter from Thailand Revenue to confirm this. Further, like many retirees I'm switching to DTV next year, so immigration is no longer on my *must do" list. They won't be seeing me for years, so very little they can do huh? 😂😂😂
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
Yeah I'm new here. Seventeen years! I think you're the newby. Very little idea how it all works. I just have to laugh at your naievity. Absolutely no concept! Have a good night
Neil *********
@Jim *******
why would retain tax residence in your own country if it’s a less favourable situation

I’m not getting into full ins and outs here please accept that as This has been my job for 25 years and I’m internationally qualified to do so.

It’s just here so many keyboard warriors not that I’m suggesting you are one but there are and then all sorts of peoples opinions rather than than fact.

Hope you understand and appreciate that
Jim ********
@Neil ********
Yes it depends on individual circumstances. Thailand is no tax haven. I have a substantial property investment portfolio in Australia as well as a sharemarket portfolio. Australian tax residents get considerable concessions on these such as tax-free threshold, negative gearing, CGT discounts and dividend imputation. It would be financial incompetence for me to lose my Australian Tax Residency, so I ensure I meet the requirements year after year. This also means of course that the Australian Tax Residency trumps the Thai Tax Residency under the terms of the DTA, so I would only be required to pay tax on money actually earned in Thailand to the Thai tax office
Neil *********
@Jim *******
very true and the ato is very strict with their monitoring just like the UK and US. do you also know there’s an offshore investment that is completely tax free for Aussies after 10 years

All above board and approved by ato just fyi
Jim ********
@Neil ********
My superannuation fund pension is totally tax-free as I'm over 60, and my investment properties are geared that I pay minimal tax. I don't use savings or cash management accounts. All cash goes into the latest mortgage, which can be drawn against. My shire portfolio consists only of blue chip shares, which earn very good dividends, all of which are fully franked, so using dividend imputation I get back what the companies have already paid in tax. My money is already structured that I pay minimal tax but I am accumulating great capital growth
Anne *******
@Neil ********
, exactly!
Andrew *********
@Neil ********
this 100%

Private pensions from the UK can be moved to be held on more favourable tax locations 😉
Neil *********
@Andrew ********
it doesn’t work that way unfortunately as they’re classed as uk so moving the actual pension isn’t an option and anyone who tells you to is a dodgy person so run because they’re doing it for huge commission for themselves

Each client is individual so it’s about looking at their entire situation
Andrew *********
@Neil ********
so you mean you don't do things in return for payment, possibly in the form of commission? Are you a charity 😉

Either way, you seem like you would be more up to date on current rules. Many governments have changed the rules since I had anything to do with it 😆
Neil *********
@Andrew ********
haha no but there are unfortunately so called advisers here who aren’t qualified at all and will give people the sales rubbish so they can earn big commission and the clients end up with problems. Proper advisers who have done the job in a regulated environment like the UK or US will give the right advice and earn from that and keep the clients and even get referrals from the clients
Andrew *********
@Neil ********
I know exactly who you mean!

I worked in Bangkok booking appointments for IFA there about 15 years ago.

Could always tell the bad apple companies right away because they offered a commission only career path to becoming a millionaire...

The guys I ended up working for gave me a visa and a wage for filling their calendars and some kickbacks if anything big landed from my appointments...and they definitely didn't sell (but did help people who had been suckered) those front loaded commission products that...ahem...not sure if I should name drop...claimed to be the biggest global IFA network by selling...(Using a Belgian and Maltese issued financial services licence enabling them to sell some minor insurance products to legitimise their brand) 😆😆😆

How's the actual market there now for the IFA space?
Neil *********
@Andrew ********
oh I have a fair idea who they are lol.

There’s only a few good advisers here in all truth but for me the most important thing is and the reason I am where I am is that in the unlikely event the client has a complaint then in Asia there is only one independent wealth management firm who is part of a U.K. plc so there is recourse for clients should they ever need it.
Andrew *********
@Neil ********
recourse was usually the emotional problem most people felt they couldn't get past. And we saw it a lot where people had signed up to 10 year products that the management firm got fully paid for within 18 months, so they just stopped caring... leaving the client with bugger all.
Neil *********
@Andrew ********
oh yes the investment products that are rightly not allowed in most regulated markets but offshore is different. I’ve only ever worked in the UK the most regulated market and my advice to my clients offshore is exactly the same just with more tax advantages now
Andrew *********
@Neil ********
one of the ways I remember my boss telling me to check it was to look at how the product was set to be paid to the seller.

The heavier front loaded it was the more likely it was to be misrepresented to make a sale. Residuals are generally better at keeping sellers in line and therefore more stable products to work with that have better reputations.

Also check their financial licenses actually allow them to sell what they are selling when looking for work. Too many will get a basic financial services licence and represent themselves as allowed to sell anything and everything!

Little details 😉
Neil *********
@Andrew ********
and also they don’t have licenses they piggyback on others which means technically they aren’t even their clients. There’s so many dodgy ones out here it’s awful to be honest but one client at a time I’ll get there with doing it the right way
Tim *********
@Neil ********
Already here Neil, with transfers from 1 January 2024 being assessable for Thai tax if your country's DTA doesn't exempt them
Robert ****
@Neil ********
It doesn't matter what hypothetical laws that may or may not be passed in Thailand. What matters is the individual tax status and Thailand's DTA agreements with 61 countries.
James **********
@Neil ********
easy just leave Thailand and go to Cambodia or the Philippines where we are welcomed, Thailand is going down the wrong path right now many will leave the land off smiles for pasture new if this continues
Jeff *******
@James *********
Thailand is merely catching up with the west who don't seem to be getting the stick that the thais are now getting. 100% Cambodia and the Philippines and everywhere else will eventually fall into line. Why wouldn't they, a ton of tax receipts are just there for the taking
Ian *****
@James *********
Thailand is just doing what it is required to under world tax agreements between governments to stop tax avoidance. The others will follow
Christopher *************
I suggest you contact a tax expert here in Thailand as everyone's situation is unique , DTA,s in some cases are good in alot of cases are bad like the UK one for example. State or private pensions can be treated different and also savings and investments taken out before 1st January 2024 are favourable and you will only pay tax on the amount bought into Thailand at the capitol gains rate after concidering your personal tax allowances in Thailand. I suggest looking at or talking to , expattaxthailand.com
John **********
@Christopher ************
state and private pensions are treated the same if you're from the UK, the only carve out is for some pensions earned while working for the government
Christopher *************
@John *********
the only ones in the dta are military and public sector pensions that's all that are covered
John **********
@Christopher ************
yep, and you need to be careful about what you call public sector too. There's actually a document defining what counts as a government pension and what doesn't
Christopher *************
@John *********
agree , I have a private pension off shore in Guernsey and I'm too young for uk state pension for quite a few years yet. My money comes from an injury award from the high court in London and capitol gains on some that's invested
Christopher *************
@John *********
I read all of it
Jim ********
@Christopher ************
Why do people keep pushing this guy. He's already made a heap of mistakes. Are you on a commission?
Christopher *************
@Jim *******
so what mistakes has he made ? You can't make a comment like this and say nothing --- justify , and no I'm not on commission how dare you say this.
Jim ********
@Christopher ************
I recommend Thailand Revenue.
Christopher *************
@Jim *******
Thailand revenue department?? They are still not allowing expats to get a tax ID unless they have a work permit lol
Jim ********
@Christopher ************
And what does that tell you? Hey, I can help you. Go and see one of your buddies at this place and hand over 3500 baht. They'll get you the number that you so desperately crave! 😂😂😂
Christopher *************
@Jim *******
you use these ?
Jim ********
@Christopher ************
No way. It's only mugs who want to throw money at scamming Tax Agents who use these. I've no plans to get a tax ID number. I'll bet you use a visa agent too? 🤣
Christopher *************
@Jim *******
no I don't, I'm elite holder 20 years ,,,,, so you don't plan to pay taxes or register for an ID then big man lol
Jim ********
@Christopher ************
I don't need to. I have zero assessable income, what's the point?
Christopher *************
Also come on then who do you recommend for your taxes in Thailand????
Nicholas *********
We have to bring cash
Frank ********
@Nicholas ********
cash is perfect, except you are limited in the amount you bring.
Bob **********
@Nicholas ********
you can do that then explain to them how you been living here
Nicholas *********
@Bob *********
Who said 100 pc of your needs
Bob **********
Sue **********
Depends on lot of individual situations for retirees, age, sort of pension, country of origin, family status and so much more. Nobody can tell whats going to be implemented at all, not even tax experts know the answer
John **********
@Sue *********
it has already been implemented. Although you are correct that there's a lot of variables they are known variables
Carl **************
@John *********
not yet known
John **********
Carl **************
@John *********
could you precise the rules concerning the double taxation for retired people ? Thank .
John **********
@Carl *************
it depends on too many variables to give the precise rules for one individual person. You would need to look at the Dual Tax Agreement between your country and Thailand, assuming one exists. If it does it will be clearly defined there.
Carl **************
@John *********
I look at the agreement between my country and Thailand and the Dual Tax is well defined. Thank for your good recommendation.
Jeff *******
@Carl *************
You're putting a lot of faith in the thai authorities being up to speed with over 200 DTA's coming at them all at once! I've got a feeling EVERYONE will get taxed regardless and the onus will be on you to make the case to get a refund. Also different countries individual tax year ends (ie UK April, Thailand December etc) are going to cause carnage imo
Carl **************
@Jeff ******
conclusion : : wait and see !
Carl **************
@Sue *********
nobody knows right
Christopher ******
@Carl *************
until it actually happens nobody knows!!!
Bart **************
Depends
Charles ********
Taxes are not based on nationality or visa status. Tax residency is determined by how many days you are in the country

Income is determined assessable based on section 41 and 42 of the revenue code.

If you are living only one a government pensions, it's unlikely a concern. If you are living on a private pension or active income, I would advise you to seek a competent professional.
Brian ********
@Charles *******
so if a person has a state pension + a company pension and he has £28,000 a year income, will I have to pay tax in Thailand I'm from uk
Jeff *******
@Brian *******
yes - minus your personal allowance
Roberto *******
@Brian *******
with a very low income like that, and credit in one country for taxes paid in the other, not likely to make much difference.
Brian ********
Gary ********
@Roberto ******
that is not a very low income....it is perfectly good for living in Thailand....dont be so arrogant
Roberto *******
@Gary *******
Thailand has tax credits, and a graduated income tax rate, so the actual tax amount on 28k won’t be too high. That is a spectacularly small income for an expat from a western country, and he certainly doesn’t need to worry about taxes. Any difference is small and more than made up for by cheaper living in Thailand.
Frank ********
@Roberto ******
becoming cheaper every day🤣
Jim ********
@Roberto ******
It's 1.2 million Baht, so 100,000 baht per month. Annual tax bill would still be about 170,000 baht
Jim ********
@Brian *******
Sadly, unlike most other countries with a DTA, the UK version is very poor so I'd say yes you'll be assessed for tax on your pension
Brian ********
Thom **********
@Charles *******
different countries have different tax rates,
Charles ********
@Thom *********
yup, and they all have different flags also...why are you telling me this ?🤣
Ken ***********
@Charles *******
very thorough response
Jim ********
@Charles *******
There's a lot more to residency than how much time is spent in the country. In Australia for example it's more to do with having a permanent abode and family/financial ties than it is a simple number of days. If it was simply number of days, the mega rich would just spend four months in three different countries and avoid tax everywhere, so much more to it
Frank ********
Ok
เอ็ดเวิร์ด *******
@Jim *******
It is just the number of days in Thailand. What goes on in Australia is irrelevant to the OP question.
Jim ********
@เอ็ดเวิร์ด ******
I think the OP is from Canada. They have a similar DTA, so if he retains tax residency in Canada he will not be subject to taxation in Thailand for pension payments
Frank ********
@Jim *******
not true statement
Jim ********
@Frank *******
I just checked the Thai-Canadian DTA. I'm 100% correct.
Ekkehard *******
@Jim *******
Concerning Thailand, tax residency is defined solely by the total number of days a visitor is staying in Thailand per year. If living less than 180 days, he/she is not a Thai tax resident.
Jim ********
@Ekkehard ******
Correct. But it's still possible for a person to be a tax resident of two countries and the DTA would determine which country's tax takes precedence.
James **********
@Charles *******
why when I’ve retired and receive a salary from my company back in the uk 🇬🇧 we have a duel tax treaty I pay my taxes at source PAYE and NATIONAL INSURANCE.
Frank ********
Frank ********
@James *********
Thailand is its own country. Does not belong to any country nor has it ever been conquered.
Charles **********
@Frank *******
Thailand was conquered by Japan in WW II
Roberto *******
@James *********
ffs cause Thailand has different laws? Duel tax agreement would mean they fight with swords
Jim ********
@Charles *******
Under DTAs all pensions are the same
Charles ********
@Jim *******
becareful with words like "all", that's an absolute and "all" 61 treaties are different. In general, government pensions are most protected class of income. Many countries private pensions, retirement funds, annuities, are taxable in one or both states, depending on the treaty.

It's also very important to note that many people who live in Thailand full time, will likely end up paying tax only in Thailand and not their home country, many people assume it's the other way around.

As an American, who is a tax resident by citizenship, I am fully aware of having competeting tax residency. It depends on the treaty and the income class. Some might limit certain income from being tax in another, but certain income types might still be taxable on both. Often (not "always") that is passive I come like capital gains, dividends, royalties, interest, etc. Even with an exclusive right to tax clauses.
Jim ********
Jim ********
@Charles *******
Yes you need to read the DTA applicable to your country. I have dual tax residency and the DTA provides a "test" to determine which country prevails. I have closer economic and personal ties with Australia plus a permanent place of residence in Australia, so Australia is the only country where my pension is taxable
Gregory ********
@Jim *******
most retirees leave their 800 k in their home countries—if no tax is deducted there and its remitted to Thailand and they live here more than 180 days in the year—the interest is Taxed in thailand
Roberto *******
@Gregory *******
Thailand is talking about changing how it taxes global income. It isn’t law yet, but it could be soon
John **********
@Jim *******
under some DTAs
Jim ********
@John *********
A pension is a pension. I haven't seen any DTA which differentiates except for government employees who were working in both jurisdictions, such as embassy staff etc
John **********
@Jim *******
There isn't even a specific section on Pensions in the UK DTA. They're only covered under "Governmental Services".
Jim ********
@John *********
That's UK, but there's a lot more countries in the world
John **********
@Jim *******
indeed. But you claimed all DTAs are the same regarding pensions which they're not. Surely better not to mislead people
Jim ********
@John *********
There's a dozen "tax experts" touting for business in these groups who are misleading people. Perhaps you should start telling them to pull back on their misleading advice?
John **********
@Jim *******
so you're happy to mislead people?
Jim ********
@John *********
I'm not misleading anyone. Each individual should check their own DTA. Can you not read this? Which part of "taxable only in that state" can't you understand?
John **********
@Jim *******
but that is the DTA specific to your country. What you actually said was "Under DTAs all pensions are the same" which can be totally misleading for anyone not from your country. Why is that so difficult for you to understand. There's a lot more than just Aussies in this group
Jim ********
@John *********
US, NZ, Germany and Canadian DTAs are the same. As far as I know only the UK has the f****d up DTA (probably a relic from the Thatcher years!). So I'll rephrase:- Under DTAs all pensions (except UK) are the same. Happy now? 👍👍👍
Ivan ************
@J**
you realise that says that pensions are taxable in Thailand if the person is resident in Thailand (i.e. over 180 days per year). That state refers to the state of residence, read it carefully.
Jim ********
@Ivan ***********
That's if you're solely a tax resident of Thailand. However, for dual tax residents you can use the formula in the DTA to ensure tax residency (and tax laws) remains with the country paying the pension, which means it is not taxable in Thailand
Ivan ************
@Jim *******
if you meet the criteria for being resident in Australia, but this means you need a permanent home or habitual abode in Australia.
Jim ********
@Ivan ***********
I'm sure most Aussies will have a "permanent home" in Australia. Certainly moreso than any "permanent home" in Thailand (unless someone is silly enough to buy property here!).
Jeff *******
@Jim *******
Of all the aussies I know, precisely NONE have a home in Australia and have all bought here. something about the taxes keeping a home back home makes it a no brainer
Jim ********
@Jeff ******
Provided you retain Australian Tax Residency having investment properties in Australia is a brilliant strategy. There's negative gearing, tax-free threshold and a 50% reduction in CGT. Perhaps the people you know didn't have the necessary funds to invest in such a tax-effective system. Those that have bought in Thailand (as well as having a very poor investment) have no chance of avoiding taxes in Thailand. Them's the choices we make!! 👍
Jim ********
Mostly no, depends on the double tax agreement your country has with Thailand
Andrew ***********
@Jim *******
most sensible comment I have seen in months 😂 👍
Frank ********
Gary ********
@Andrew **********
might be sensible but it is wrong. Thailand is already from 1st Jan 2024 taxing any income brought into the country... whetever it comes from.

If your country has a really good double taxation agreement there is a chance you won't pay tax in Thailand....but all countries have their own agreements and so you will need to investigate the wording yourself or get advice from a tax specialist.

The UK DTA is pretty useless, and will only help ex-servicemen and certain others like police. For the average person it will not protect you.

I am here on a retirement visa and I am fully expecting to pay tax at the end of March 2025
Kevin **********
I like the guy who starts every one of his posts with ffs
Andrew ***********
@Gary *******
I have a double tax agreement as well as safeguards for government super etc. So I'm not really concerned at this stage. But appreciate your advise.
Jim ********
@Gary *******
Actually you're wrong. Whether you pay tax in Thailand or not is dependent on your country's DTA with Thailand. You're obviously from the UK so I can understand your saltiness. I'd feel cheated too! 🤣🤣🤣. I won't be paying any tax in Thailand next year so I'm happy!
Roberto *******
@Andrew **********
also, mostly wrong as Thailand is changing how it taxes expats
Jim ********
@Roberto ******
Actually mostly right. It all comes down to the Double Tax Agreement which exists between your country and Thailand and whether you maintain tax residency in your home country, which I do, but others may choose not to. But it's all in the DTA.
Eric ******
@Jim *******
I was relieved after your original comment, but then comes the replies.🤦🏻‍♂️ It's so confusing. But if I'm from the US, retired, and only receiving income from a pension and interest from a high yield savings account, no income from Thailand per say, am I at risk of being taxed here? I've heard both ways. We do have a dual taxation agreement but I've read that the new possible tax law would override that. I know that it is still up in the air, but any clarification on that particular scenario? Thanks.
Jim ********
@Eric *****
Firstly, what new tax rule are you specifically referring to?
Eric ******
@Jim *******
the one everyone us talking about where they are going to tax retirees here. Lots of talk about in the forums.
Jim ********
@Eric *****
The one "everyone is talking about"? Sorry, I've just got to laugh at that one! There's no changes to any rules affecting retirees. The only change is the removal of a loophole which enabled rich Thai people to defer remitting money to Thailand and avoiding tax. A most ridiculous rule when you think about it. Pensioners have always been protected from Thai tax by virtue of DTAs. Sadly, the "tax experts" have jumped on this and are spreading fear amongst retirees in order to scam them out of money with their "advice". Take no notice. Nothing's going to happen! 👍
Eric ******
@Jim *******
exactly! At first I just blew it off, but the more and more and more you hear...so I have nothing to worry about? Thanks.
Roberto *******
@Jim *******
ffs no, you are almost completely wrong on every aspect. You are a tax resident of Thailand if you meet the criteria, and you don’t seem to understand how DTAs work.
Jim ********
@Roberto ******
I am also a tax resident of Australia, so under the terms of the DTA, Australia becomes my sole tax residency. It's you that does not understand the DTA!
Roberto *******
@Jim *******
Australia tax rates are just as high if not higher than Thailand, is that what you are bragging about? And no, you don’t get to pick whether or not you are a tax resident of Thailand. It is possible you may not owe any more taxes in Thailand, but you will still need to file.
Jim ********
@Roberto ******
I agree you don't get to pick, but under the terms of the DTA I am an Australian Tax Resident, that's just how it falls. I can file a blank form and sign it no problem, but it's unlikely they'd want that as I'm not a Thai Tax Resident and have zero assessable income. I don't know where the "bragging" comes in! 😂
Frank ********
@Jim *******
after 180 days in Thailand you will be a Thai tax resident
Jim ********
@Frank *******
Correct. But if a person also meets the criteria for tax resident of another country, they become a "dual tax resident" in which case (depending on each individual's personal situation) the steps in the DTA are followed to determine exactly which country's tax regime is followed. Every individual is different.
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