What does being a freelancer mean for visa eligibility in Thailand?

@Rick *****

there are 4 in the US, so you'll need to contact the correct one.

@Brandon ***********

I use the one in Washington DC Thai Embassy. Thx!

@Greg **********

errr no, this guy doesn't seem to state that exiting is not required. Where is the guy who did?

@Bart *************

there were so many comments on this topic. Some were correct and others weren't. I don't have the time to search for the one you are looking for

@Greg **********

right bro 👍

@Bart *************

I would love if you had directed your apology to me as well 😂😉 as I am the other one you have misjudged

@Bart *************

that must be good stuff, can you get me some ?

@Colin ******

sure, I'll ask Greg to get you some 👍

@Bart *************

if you pick maximum of two times 180 days, this equals a maximum of 360 days, you will have to exit Thailand before the 360th day is up. Of course you could leave earlier within the 5 years visa validity period

@Greg **********

and return.

@Bart *************

"As the DTV has been announced you can live in Thailand for 366 days per year if you want." . . . .😂😂😂😂 I wonder how one can live in Thailand for 366 days per year, as every calendar year has a maximum of 365 days 😂

@Greg **********

you better recount the days in the current year then 🤣

And it's not exactly the first time we have this. I think you really missed something serious there.

@Bart *************

I think we’ve gotten past specific visas…the fact is that if u spend 180 days out of a calendar year in Thailand then there is a concern about tax burden….for countries that have an articulated tax treaty w Thailand the burden may be reduced but the specifics there remain ambiguous to me…the idea that people get double taxed isn’t unique…American citizens for instance pay taxes on the nation that they earn income in and then they pay it again to America if it goes above a relatively low threshold amount

@Gabriel *******

and lastly, some tax advice: you could see if it's beneficial to spread your income over multiple countries. In progressive tax systems you could then save some. And Thailand's tax rates are exceptionally progressive.

@Gabriel *******

you're talking as if only three countries have a tax treaty with Thailand, but I'd be surprised if you can find even one the doesn't.

The big change of the new tax system is when you owed tax in Thailand based on the 180 days rule, and not elsewhere based on similar rules there, but then owed 0 because you didn't remit your income. Then you now pay tax, as, let's be fair, you should. But then you already stayed here for 180 days before the changes.

If you didn't stay here 180 days and now do, odds are you you owe less tax than before. Being taxable in Thailand is not something I'd particularly prevent, I'd actually rather aim for it. The taxes are a laugh.

@Bart *************

yeah I get that thats the implication, thanks to this thread I’ve now read the tax code and it’s clear as mud…as usual that lack of clarity now lends itself to conjecture and fear mongering…I’ve seen this happen over and over again here regarding a wide range of foreigner-specific issues and nearly always it works out positively for us as you’ve sugggested…having said that, I’ve also seen really challenging policy implemented very quickly that has had serious consequences for some…I just don’t want to be a member of the “some” group

@Colin ******

well if you’re paying the very low rate of 10k but then after 180 days funds brought into the country are taxed then it’s not that cheap anymore

@Gabriel *******

just so I understand your logic... You claim this visa is more expensive than say a retirement visa due to the tax payable? Have I got this right?

@Gabriel *******

if you stay 180 days inside Thailand in any tax year then you become tax resident. It doesn't matter what visa you have

@John *********

right and this was not enforced before…u could bring basically limitless amounts of cash without incurring Thai taxes….the new scenario seems to suggest that those monies will now be subject to Thai tax….i get it and don’t necessarily disagree w the Thai government but I’m not thrilled to pay taxes on taxed money

@Gabriel *******

previously it was only income received in the same tax year, now it doesn't matter when it was received as long as its after /2023. That's the only change. If you come from a country that has a dual tax agreement with Thailand you will get a credit for tax already paid in your home country on the income you bring in so you won't be taxed twice, in effect you end up paying the higher of the two.

@John *********

great info, thanks…selfish question, does the USA have this tax agreement? We certainly have to pay USA taxes on money we make here above a threshold number

@Gabriel *******

yes it does. There are possibly other exemptions listed in it too that may apply to you. Google "dta usa Thailand"

@John *********

thanks man, gonna check it out

@Gabriel *******

Not just funds brought into the country. My understanding is that they want foreigners to pay tax on all money earned abroad even if they keep it in a foreign bank account. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@Jake ******

you are not wrong, that's the latest plan.

@Jake ******

u are definitely wrong

@Gabriel *******

Yup, looks like you're right. At present, it only applies to money repatriated to Thailand. So is paying for everything with a foreign credit card the only way around this new system?

@Jake ******

paying for things inside Thailand with a credit card isn't a workaround

@Jake ******

well you need 500k in a bank…not sure that will have to be a Thai bank but that sounds taxable…I’ve been here nearly 20 years and have found over that period that having actual cash in Thailand is important for all sorts of situations so doesn’t seem feasible to live entirely on foreign credit cards…as per taxing income on overseas funds derived from overseas sources and stored in overseas banks held by non citizens of Thailand (or any other country) does not seem feasible

@Gabriel *******

500k is not taxed.

@Gabriel *******

@Jake ******

the 500k (equivalent) you show in a foreign bank outside Thailand when applying for the visa (which can only be done outside Thailand). It doesn't have to be in a Thai bank.

@Ivan ***********

I know that’s what it says now, I question whether that will eemain

@Gabriel *******

Oh wow, I didn't think about that. If they require 500K baht in a Thai bank and then suddenly tax it at 20% if you stay longer than 180 days per year then the DTV becomes a lot more expensive 😬

@Jake ******

right, if it was just 20% on only 500k per year that’s still only 20k thb in money paid in fees and taxes for the dtv which would still be a bargain…that said, it’s unlikely that’ll be all one brings over and also makes buying a home or car or whatever here very very expensive

@Gabriel *******

20% of 500k is 100,000 THB. Plus the initial 10k. Plus border run fees, plus another 10k for in-country extension, plus tax for anything earned over 150,000THB (for the 2nd 180 days of the year).

Could be 120k a year plus income tax (worse case scenario).

@Frank-Steven **********

seems that way, 10k per annum is just too good to be true without a serious financial caveat

@Gabriel *******

a financial caveat, being... preventing us from owing tax? 🤔

@Gabriel *******

I don't see the big fuss about the taxation. If you live in another country for more than 180 days, you are basically (roughly speaking and for most cases) switching from being a tax resident in your former country of residence to being a tax resident in Thailand. I think a moderate taxation would only be fair and to be expected, then.

@Frank-Steven **********

I think so too…to me it’s not a matter of being fair, it just means that I personally will pay 40% or so in America and then 20% on the remainder I repatriate to Thailand…some will stay, others will leave but those of us tied to the kingdom will need to prepare for a large financial pivot

@Gabriel *******

Gotcha. Always good and essential to be prepared in tax and financial matters. I am not a expert of US taxation. Many countries have mutual tax agreements, so that double taxation won't occur or be minimized. Also, where there are taxes, there are always ways to "optimize" taxes. I myself might use the DTV only until I have reshuffled some income to meet the last bit of the LTR requirements. The latter comes with a tax exemption on all foreign income - that would be sweet and good to plan with.

@Frank-Steven **********

American taxation is singular in that USA citizens pay tax on money derived from anywhere on the globe whether u live in the USA or not…there is a threshold amount for that taxation but it’s not particularly hogh

@Gabriel *******

Americans can exempt $126,500 per year earned income under FEIE

@Gabriel *******

I was aware that the US follows a world income tax logic. But I don't know enough about the details. I would assume that there are ways to subtract taxes paid in another country / your new country of residence from what you would owe in the US as a citizen.

@Frank-Steven **********

if that were the case then I don’t see how anyone making legit taxed money overseas would ever have a Thai tax burden…we must be missing something?

@Gabriel *******

As with so many things in Thailand, it will also come down to what is legally required vs. what is effectively enforced.

@Frank-Steven **********

right…I guess my concern for all visa holders is that when it’s time for an extension and one has spent more than 180 days in country we’ll have to submit documents evidencing tax payment in order to extend

@Gabriel *******

That would be 180 days per (tax / calendar) year. But yes, a valid concern. And an even mild one if only limited to extensions. Could in theory also be applied for preventing people from leaving the country. 😉 But that is theory.

@Frank-Steven **********

yeah…I’m no tax pro but I’m pretty good at counting…20% could be a whole lotta cash

@Gabriel *******

I am not sure where the 20% is coming from. In general, in Thailand income tax is a progression in stages between 0% and 35% depending on the taxable income.

@Frank-Steven **********

I’m not sure either…I haven’t read the tax code but that’s the number I’ve heard so could be nonsense…as an employee in Thailand on 6 figures per month I never paid more than 12% or so

@Gabriel *******

Can't really comment on that. There are too many variables here. E.g. if you are on a SMART or LTR visa, you would have a special tax rate. Also, taxable income does not equal salary.

@Frank-Steven **********

right and presumably we could figure out how to be more creative with utilizing income held overseas

@Gabriel *******

We are indeed missing quite a bit still when it comes to fully understanding the implications of the new interpretation and the new proposals with regards to Thai taxation. Also, there is no general answer to fit all, it will likely depend on many individual constellations. But if you live the majority on the year in Thailand, becoming a tax-resident here, I would assume that Thailand has the first right / priority to tax you. That however should lower or null many taxes you are due to pay in other countries (merely based on citizenship). I will dive into that deeper, when the need arises.

@Bart *************

but they coincide

@Gabriel *******

so?

@Bart *************

I’m not trying to be argumentative, im genuinely interested in other peoples take in this…it seems notable to me that a new very low price visa wich can be used to stay in the kingdom longer than 180 days was rolled out at the same general time that a tax policy for foreigners who stay longer than 180 days was implemented…do you think that’s a coincidence?

@Gabriel *******

The tax policy is not for foreigners. It is for Thai. And obviously foreigners are treated the same. You always were a tax resident in Thailand if you stayed more than 180 days per year. Regardless of visa or lack thereof (visa exempt).

Before the tax changes you could season your money earned outside of Thailand for a year and then bring it into Thailand, tax free. That is now no longer possible: for Thai, as well as for non Thai.

@Angelo **********

right, so for us that have been here for a long time that is going to be quite an adjustment

@Gabriel *******

Yes, but only because you were to lazy to adjust 10 years ago. No idea why you prefer to pay taxes on pensions in your home country, while pensions are not taxed in Thailand ... you should have changed your official tax residency long ago.

@Gabriel *******

The change to the tax system was announced last September but it's not a tax policy for foreigners, it's just a new interpretation of a tax policy that has existed for many years

@Gabriel *******

Exactly. And they're targeting digital nomads, remote workers, and freelancers for the first time ever. This used to be a legal gray area which wasn't openly addressed by the government. Seems like they're trying to lure as many people as possible into the tax system. DTV holders might suddenly be asked to pay 20% tax on their earnings if they want to stay in Thailand for longer than 180 days in a calendar year.

@Jake ******

and they should… I you want to life here, pay taxes!

@Bart *************

so it's related

Anything that happens at the same time is related?! And you are not trying to be argumentative... but what is that last reply then?

Although your claim is far fetched, as is your argument for it, that I don't feel like I need to argument against anything. But alright, let's go. These things are indeed a coincidence because the 180 days of the DTV are by no means a limit of staying in the country, and because they barely play any role in the taxation either. Bilateral treaties are mostly in charge of where and where not tax is owed. You're connecting two events that don't even happen at the exact same time based on a number that appears to coincide but barely has any relevance to either of the two events.

But okay, let's skip all those facts. What would we then be able to explain? Suppose the 180 days do indeed determine exclusively where you owe tax and that it is indeed a limit of how many days per calendar year you are physically allowed to be in Thailand if you own a DTV. Then this rule would ensure that DTV holders are not owing tax in Thailand. Would that make any sense they want to aim for that? No, not the slightest. If anything, they'd want people to owe tax.

You should try a career as flat earther, you seem talented.

@Bart *************

so you’re saying the earth is not flat?

@Gabriel *******

also, please look into tax laws before making statements. You would not owe tax in two countries.

@Brandon ***********

how?! This is not related in any way. With the DTV you can stay 365 days per year in Thailand if you want.

@Bart *************

no. 180+180.

@Tim *******

the visa is multiple entry 5 years. You can be in Thailand for as many days in each of the four calendar years wholly covered by the visa validity as you like.

@Bart *************

not accurate.

@Tim *******

so you are saying that there's a clause preventing you from making use of the multiple entries right after exiting, and that you have to wait x days. Would you then be so kind to show us that clause? And after how many days could we come back?

@Bart *************

180 + 180 extension in country. Per year. That’s how it’s written. Show during those period you are allowed multi entries. Show me where it says otherwise.

@Tim *******

it's in the visa conditions published everywhere. Have a look.

@Bart *************

show me where is shows 365 days.

@Tim *******

You asked me to show where it says multi entry which is what does the trick. The 365 days are only there because that's how many days we have in most years, you won't find it on the sheet. Nice attempt to change the query, as you probably now also found that the visa is multiple entry. But I've encircled it regardless, please see attached.