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Why is the LTR Visa in Thailand failing to attract its target number of applicants?
LTR VisaThailand visa regulationsVisa for remote workersImmigration Bureau of ThailandPermanent residencyWork From Thailand visaConsulting business expatriatesDTV VisaExpat challenges in ThailandVisa requirements for foreigners
Jul 8, 2024
2 years ago
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTERHere is some strong indicator of what I have been preaching over and over again: The LTR Visa - great as it is - is a failure in its current form!
It was set out a attract 1 MILLION highly sought after candidates - but a mere 4457 applications have only been achieved in total.
Especially the "Work from Thailand" category is a total misalignment of requirements and realities. Especially the requirement to be an employee of only a big or publicly listed company is just too far off the realities of many remote workers that would otherwise easily meet the rest of the requirements. Why oh why would they even care of I make my high income that I am willing to spend in Thailand from direct employment income of a listed corporation - or as owner of my own medium sized (consulting) business?
Meanwhile, a DTV Destination Thailand Visa was announced - but as so often not followed through. OK: Rant over. Have a great day, everyone. :-)
It was set out a attract 1 MILLION highly sought after candidates - but a mere 4457 applications have only been achieved in total.
Especially the "Work from Thailand" category is a total misalignment of requirements and realities. Especially the requirement to be an employee of only a big or publicly listed company is just too far off the realities of many remote workers that would otherwise easily meet the rest of the requirements. Why oh why would they even care of I make my high income that I am willing to spend in Thailand from direct employment income of a listed corporation - or as owner of my own medium sized (consulting) business?
Meanwhile, a DTV Destination Thailand Visa was announced - but as so often not followed through. OK: Rant over. Have a great day, everyone. :-)
TLDR : Answer Summary
The discussion highlights frustrations with Thailand's LTR Visa, which aims to attract 1 million applicants but has seen only 4,457 applications so far. Critics argue that the stringent requirements, particularly the stipulation of being employed by large corporations, exclude many remote workers and small business owners who meet other criteria. The conversation also touches on the perceived inconsistency of immigration practices and calls for reforms to make the visa more accessible, especially for remote workers and those with varying income sources.
DTV VISA RESOURCES / SERVICES
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- Explore recent discussions by using the DTV Visa tag in the search box at the top of the page.
- Join the Thai Visa Advice Facebook Group to ask your questions, and get advice from others.
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Bart **************
I fully agree with you. If they want to have a visa for remote workers, why oh why is it only good if you work for Shell or Unilever. Why is someone working remote for some medium sized software or consultancy company not good enough to work remote in Thailand??
But it's not the first time. I remember a visa type launched a couple years ago aiming for people owning property in Thailand. One of the requirements was that you had a couple million baht in the bank still. So pointless; why would someone be required to own that much cash if it is already required that he/she owns a house? Many people do not hold so much cash in the bank but have it invested in multiple houses or in stock. We can all agree that having some money to spend is a reasonable requirement, but enough to buy yet another house, if you are also required to already own one, that makes no sense to me.
But it's not the first time. I remember a visa type launched a couple years ago aiming for people owning property in Thailand. One of the requirements was that you had a couple million baht in the bank still. So pointless; why would someone be required to own that much cash if it is already required that he/she owns a house? Many people do not hold so much cash in the bank but have it invested in multiple houses or in stock. We can all agree that having some money to spend is a reasonable requirement, but enough to buy yet another house, if you are also required to already own one, that makes no sense to me.
Daniel ******
10 years tax exemption for wealthy pensioners for 50 k THB is a real good deal!
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTERAs expected ... they don't seem to see the need for adjustments at this point. But they are always quick and polite to response at the BOI / LTR team - I gotta give it to them.
Jeff *******
Its a major clusterfuck! Cash in the bank is not accepted as proof of wealth but if you invest in thai stocks that don't have a performance record or reputable fund manager, you're in!! They seriously expect you to drag funds away from the Nasdaq (trackers running around 30%+ at the moment and put it into thai run companies! Or of course a 'passive income' of 80k US which must be shown on a tax return. Rich retirees don't have tax returns because they're retired!!! Garbage scheme, dreamt up by not very intelligent office clerks
Andrea *********
@Frank-Steven **********
thanks ☺️Reply to
Andrea *********
Reply
Greg ***********
why would they expect to attract one million applicants? Currently, around 240.000 western Farang live in Thailand permanently. They will never boost this number over the 1-million mark, regardless what kind of programme they think up. Only a visa-free year long stay for every age, will bring in this number
Angelo ***********
@Greg **********
Not visa free. But a simple visa with a simple work permit.Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Greg **********
I don’t know why they would - but that was their own very claim at the launch of the LTR. I would agree that 1m was too ambitious to begin with - but not even 5000 after 2 years clearly shows that the requirements don’t align with people’s realities.Jeff *******
@Frank-Steven **********
They could actually add a zero to that 5000 if they realised the documentation required isn't fit for purpose.Greg ***********
@Frank-Steven **********
the same will happen to the planned DTVFrank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Greg **********
Quite likely, yes. If the DTV ever comes to life it might very likely be ruined in the fine print.Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
Reply
Chris ****
If the LTR assists applying for permanent residency (highest vetting requirements already for a visa) applications will pick up substantially - but I don’t know if it makes it to a million persons. The categories for LTR already match up with the categories many countries seek in their permanent residents - business, skilled, wealthy.
Jeff *******
@Chris ***
But the wealthy aspect is skewed, if I show I have 50m dollars in the bank, a 100 metre yacht off the coast of Phuket and a 100m gaff in the Koh Samui mountains, I don't get off the starting blocks for an LTR. But if I'm poor enough to have to continue working after 50 and can show I'm earning a paltry 80k a year, I'm a shoe in!Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Jeff ******
If you were to invest a fraction of that in Thailand (government bond or real estate), you would certainly meet the requirements for LTR wealthy global citizen, then. But I am hesitant of making major investments in an environment as jumpy as Thailand.Jeff *******
@Frank-Steven **********
Exactly my point - I asked what bonds would I be investing in and they gave me a list. There was no performance background, no history, no management setup, nothing! You would need to view it as the fee for the LTR and not 'investment' imo. As for real estate, yep I own my house in my own name but the land in a thais. Whether that counts, who knows.Reply to
Jeff *******
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James *********
I am on the LTR Work from Thailand. It was difficult to organise - collecting all required documents was a 2 month process, but I am extremely grateful for it. Hopeful I can get renewed when the time comes.
Chris ****
@James ********
I have heard that the 5 year is just the same as the original so unless something changed your fine.Andrea *********
@James ********
Lucky you 🤩Reply to
Andrea *********
Reply
Ian *****
The LTR is great, it is just not promoted enough and I get the large company bit. They aren't aiming at digital nomads working for a two bit company with no history that could fold tomorrow and they already issued a 5 year visa !
They do need to tweak it though as it is quite restrictive and they could loosen the requirements a bit and benefit. More people should go for this as it is perfect for those employed and earning a decent salary or have a decent pension stream.
They do need to tweak it though as it is quite restrictive and they could loosen the requirements a bit and benefit. More people should go for this as it is perfect for those employed and earning a decent salary or have a decent pension stream.
Jeff *******
@Ian ****
a pension (private) will not show on any tax return - REFUSED!Ian *****
@Jeff ******
i have agent that has advised otherwise, and tax returns are not only route. Especially if pension or Investment vehicle is offshore on tax exempt jurisdiction where by definition no tax paid. And I was also advised annual pension company attested income statements or declaration of dividends/interest etc will work.....but untested by me as I currently have remote worker LTR optionJeff *******
@Ian ****
But the bottom line in many wealthy peoples cases is cash doesn't count. A 7 figure SIPP (private pension) in the UK also doesn't count. To reach the required amounts in interest/dividends alone would mean an immense pot, the size of which most people holding them would be unlikely to be eyeing up Thailand as a retirement option. I'm thinking with the woeful take up of the LTR, someone with a little more grey matter will simplify it. Would be interesting to know who your agent is though?Reply to
Jeff *******
Reply
Ruth *******
@Jeff ******
were you actually declined? There are other methods for showing payment other than tax returns. They just prefer tax returns. I’m in the process of trying to work this out with them for other income, but they say it can be done.Jeff *******
@Ruth ******
TBH no - I know I have the wealth but it doesn't seem to be in the right boxes. Many people here retired with a sizable pot and just transfer random amounts over as and when necessary, either from a cash pile (house sale etc which again won't show up on any documentation) or ad hoc withdrawals from investments or equity sales etc, all cash transactions into a bank account normally. It's been indicated to me that wouldn't stand a chance even though, and I'm not bragging here, but it's to make a point, I was told by an LTR Visa company I am wealthier than many that apply and are successful!Reply to
Jeff *******
Reply
Andrea *********
@Ian ****
I do not meet the 80k salaray requirement. 80k is a very high salary in Germany far above the average salary. I have some savings plus I own an apartment and I work for one of the biggest companies in Germany since 20 yrs. Still I am not considered to get the LTR. Well then 🙅🏼♀️ DTV is my last chance 😆Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Andrea ********
If you hold a masters degree or higher, the requirement is actually only 40k USD. That almost everyone with a masters in Germany should easily make. But the problem remains in the overregulated details.Ruth *******
@Andrea ********
. “80k is a very high salary in Germany far above the average salary.” - that’s why it’s a WEALTHY Global Citizen’s visa. 🤦♀️. For better or worse, it’s not intended for close to the average citizen of even foreign nations.Andrea *********
@Ruth ******
even below 80k you are wealthy and still have more than enough money to live in Thailand and spend a lot there.Angelo ***********
@Andrea ********
Yes, but you have no "work permit" - so where is the money coming from? Illegal online work?Andrea *********
@Angelo **********
no I am employed in Germany and would like to work for my German company from Thailand for a few weeks a year. My employer would allow me to do so and fulfills all the requirements however my salary is below 80k. That's why I can't apply for the LTR under the category "Work-From-Thailand Professional"Angelo ***********
@Andrea ********
The rumour/or unofficial news is that thee is a new via coming up. "Destination Thailand Visa" (or something like that). For that you would need 10k in a Thai bank account and get a 5 year multiple entry visa that grants you a stay of 180 days per entry. It was supposed to launch 1st of June, but it did not. Depending on how soon you want to come, that might be an option. If you do not have the 10k EUR, I guess you can ask your employer for a laon.Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Ruth ******
Yes and no. The "Wealthy Global Citizen" category is just one of the possible LTR categories. Having said that, if you hold a masters degree or higher - the requirement for the "Remote Working" category is only 40k USD - which I believe is easily achievable for many. The problem remains the overregulated details.Angelo ***********
@Frank-Steven **********
It is not. As most people have no master in anything.Ruth *******
@Frank-Steven **********
I’ll add that I think it’s absurd that a couple/family can come on an $80K salary and be considered “wealthy” and a solo person has the same salary requirement. Make it make sense. 🤣Ruth *******
@Frank-Steven **********
again, I don’t disagree. However, the point is that they’re not trying to attract the “average” people, no matter how you slice it. He was complaining about the $80K requirement. I was addressing THAT complaint.Reply to
Ruth *******
Reply
Angelo ***********
@Ian ****
It is not great. It is basically impossible to fulfill any of the requirements of any category.I am a freelance software developer. I am not employed by a stock listed company with XYZ capital.
I do not get an LTR visa. No way ...
Ian *****
@Angelo **********
absolute rubbish. I know multiple people who have this , including myself. But remote working for a non listed co isn't on their agenda - yetAngelo ***********
@Ian ****
Yeah, and? Does not make me get one. They work for IBM or Microsoft or AGODA.Are you a kind of idiot? Why not read the requirements and then ask yourself which of them you fulfill?
I fulfil NONE.
Reply to
Angelo ***********
Reply
Alan ******
LTR, there's other countries doing it better.
Alan ******
And a rich pensioner maybe Monte Carlo, Switzerland, Miami, Barbados.
Reply to
Alan ******
Reply
Rusty ******
Yep, they have set the bar far too high IMO. Even the Wealthy Pensioners class of Visa is set way too high, plus they've pegged the financial requirements to the US Dollar, WHY!
Casa **********
Spot on
Bo ******
To me, the LTR is worth it primarily for its exemption from the recent overseas repatriation income ruling and the proposed one to tax worldwide income. The 10 year period, 1 year reporting, and multiple entries are good extras. In my opinion, it is still the best type of visa. Sure beats the Elite Visa in cost and practical benefits. It may not have met the BoI volume goals, but it has given me peace of mind…that is what is important to me.
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Bo *****
No doubt. It is a good visa to have. But it’s underlying requirements need to be improved and adjusted to realities of a big part of people that would also be the target group.Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
Reply
Jo **********
I have an LTR based on remote working for just over a year now. Wonderful, no 90 day reporting and fast tracking at airport. However that’s kind of meaningless at the moment because I fly out of Thailand every month for work. Although I met the the big corporation requirement I do agree with you that it’s a bit too much. The thinking of the BOI is that you work for a large stable corporation and that you have been in the same professional position track for 5 years. And you need to demonstrate that. In their eyes your a long term stable professional working in a long term stable company. As opposed to someone who could be jumping from client to client and then have no client and no money. Again just giving you my perspective on their approach. Not that I agree.
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Jo *********
It seems that is their approach, yes. An approach of looking at the labor market as if the world would still be in the 1980ies. Happy you enjoy your LTR. Maybe some day I will apply again. I could easily get a big client to give me a work contract. Just don’t feel like changing my tax optimized income just to please some bureaucrats in brown uniforms at the moment. 😅Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
Reply
Ruth *******
They want to be sure the company will still be there in 10 years. I understand that in many ways this does not make sense. A highly skilled worker will be able to gain employment again should a company fold or downsize. However, I’m sure that’s the reasoning.
I have a similar objection to the pensioner requirement. If a person has over $800K in assets, why do they care if it’s in a retirement account (where it can still be withdrawn, but it would actually incur a penalty, thus not actually being worth $800K) or a regular brokerage fund?
Although I meet both options ($80K/yr and over $800K in assets), but I can’t meet their methods of documentation or some rule (like the type of account). It’s frustrating.
I have a similar objection to the pensioner requirement. If a person has over $800K in assets, why do they care if it’s in a retirement account (where it can still be withdrawn, but it would actually incur a penalty, thus not actually being worth $800K) or a regular brokerage fund?
Although I meet both options ($80K/yr and over $800K in assets), but I can’t meet their methods of documentation or some rule (like the type of account). It’s frustrating.
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Ruth ******
Wasn't aware of that. I hear you. Overregulating the tiniest details to a point where in the end people won't be eligible anymore is what they keep doing over and over again, sadly. And yes on your comment: but people can lose their jobs both in big companies or in SME. No difference. And similar to that: People can spend or lose all their assets after applying for a LTR. That is why the LTR is issued for 5 years first - and then new proof of requirements must be presented for the other 5 years. Their requirements do not make sense in both cases / categories.Ruth *******
@Frank-Steven **********
I have not worked in Thailand. I would not be surprised if that mutual loyalty still exists. The problem may simply be one of cultural differences.Jeff *******
@Ruth ******
It definitely doesn't exist in Thailand. Many many falang run companies within Thailand fold due to staffing loyalty issues! ie none. There is no such thing as a notice period, they just leave and you find out when you see them starting a new job via Facebook!Reply to
Jeff *******
Reply
Ruth *******
@Frank-Steven **********
I don’t disagree. Once upon a time (yes, back in the dark ages when I was young) larger companies and employees had mutual loyalty. As long as an employee put in the work, their jobs were pretty secure. Nowadays, that’s no longer the case. Looking at such things like the olden days does not make sense.Reply to
Ruth *******
Reply
Peter **********
It really sure why you would bother, just go for a basic Visa
The rules change for ex pats all the time
In a Country where whether you get a renewal of any visa you have depends on which side of the bed , or mood the Immigration Officer is in at the time
Does any of this really matter
I’ve often thought that if you would just sent whatever money you spend in Thailand including the Air fare they would be happy if you never came at all
The rules change for ex pats all the time
In a Country where whether you get a renewal of any visa you have depends on which side of the bed , or mood the Immigration Officer is in at the time
Does any of this really matter
I’ve often thought that if you would just sent whatever money you spend in Thailand including the Air fare they would be happy if you never came at all
Jeff *******
@Peter *********
No legitimate visa has even been refused based on the mood of an immigration officer. Lets stop the old wives talesPeter **********
@Jeff ******
you must know that was just a euphemism for them being difficult I’m assuming you have never been interviewed by an Immigration Officer when entering Thailand
If the interpretation of the rules were the same at Every point of entry and Immigration Office there would be no issue
But you and I know that is never going to happen
Which is why this Face book page exists
Jeff *******
@Peter *********
No never, I've read a lot about immigration being the devil incarnate but every single encounter I've ever had has been nothing but helpful! (One kept the office open for me to get something from home 30 minutes after due to close). Another gave me their personal phone number should I have any issues and not 1 baht was exchanged etc etc. Though I have seen one or two come unstuck due to their superiority attitude.Reply to
Jeff *******
Reply
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Peter *********
I feel your frustration with Thai immigration bureaucracy. Exactly there lies one of the perks of the LTR: many of these pain points have been addressed. Only yearly reporting. No need for re-entry permits and all that. Least possible touch points with immigration and tax exemption.Peter **********
@Frank-Steven **********
that may be true in the legislation But as always in Thailand the interpretation is usually very
different
I have the good fortune to have many choices of visa, 10 years married , Pension Income or just Retirement , but unfortunately have to deal with immigration in Bangkok as that’s where our home is
We always seem to have issues at renewal time because I don’t reside there permanently some years,
extra documentation , or change of address because we stayed in a hotel in Jomtien for a month or some other lame reason to refuse on the day
Contrast that to the ease with which my Wife is allowed back to our UK home with me
Fill out the form on line , visit Trendy Building for VFS interview and a 6 month Visa arrives at our Bangkok home affixed to her Thai passport
The whole Immigration thing is borderline corrupt as they want you to use and pay for an agent
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Peter *********
As I said: I feel you. Having moved around Thailand quite a bit over the years, I was always so turned off by the fact that what should be the same in all immigration offices is usually handled most inconsistently - sometimes to a point where I felt they are making things up on the go, office by office.Peter **********
@Frank-Steven **********
very true I’ve often put forward the idea that every office should have the actual documentary requirements for renewing or extending each class of visa printed and on display
But there is no money to be made from that
It’s actually cheaper and quicker for me as a UK National to fly out to Malaysia and return with a 30 day Visa on arrival than spend a day at Bangkok immigration getting a 30 day extension to a visa I already have
Reply to
Peter **********
Reply
Andrea *********
I still hope they release the DTV Visa... Would be the perfect visa for me. I'd like to spend a few weeks per year in Thailand working remotely for a German company which pays my salary. That's it.
However I don't meet the requirements for the LTR.
However I don't meet the requirements for the LTR.
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Bradley ********
All „details“ about the DTV nothing but speculation at this point.Jimmy ******
I expect the DTV to be pushed back. Otherwise it will pretty much kill off bulk of Elite
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Andrea ********
It has been quiet around the DTV for a good while. But ... there are some sparks of activity. There is one Thai consulate, that already lists a visa price for the DTV ... did you know that? Doesn't mean anything ... but could mean that things are moving forward 😉: ***************************************************
*****
4Andrea *********
@Frank-Steven **********
thanks ☺️ Looks like they're making process ✌🏼Reply to
Andrea *********
Reply
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Andrea ********
I am sure that the DTV (if it ever comes to live) would be very popular in demand. From the sounds of it, it would meet the requirements of many. We will see if it’s happening. And we will have to wait what the exact requirements then turn out to be. Good ideas can be messed up in the small print details - as it happened with the LTR. Fingers crossed. 🤞 DTV could be a good entry into a longer LTR stay.Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
Reply
Etincelle **********
I don't disagree with you. The targeted companies i.c.w. expected no. of LTRs don't make sense. At the same time I also imagine a thought process behind the requirements like 'big companies' having to do with a fair level of abuse they want to prevent, i.e. not have (paper only) companies just to get 'a visa'.
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Etincelle *********
I would agree if it were that simple to "abuse" the system. But there were plenty more requirements involved (which I all met), including proof of past years high income and paid taxes - both in notarized form. So the high income is proved either way - so why limited the source of that income to such few (publicly listed) company employees only. I would even say that the bigger the employer and the more traditional - the less likely it is to allow employees to work remotely from abroad.Etincelle **********
Again don't disagree as you make a lot of sense and the req. are though. My guess is they're just looking to make it easier for more MNC's to setup a small shop, to ultimately attract them to expand buss. in TH (and attract knowledge, labor etc). Many ways lead to Rome and they selected this specific one?
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Etincelle *********
Your guess is as good as any. In fact, I just wrote the BOI an email asking for a comment on the disappointing results and if they had any plans on adjusting the requirements. In the past they were always open to answer questions.Etincelle **********
@Frank-Steven **********
Good luck!Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Etincelle *********
Yeah. Probably above the paygrade of the person in charge of answering ... but who knows ... maybe they collect feedback somehow. 😃Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
Reply
Michael ********
Original elite said the same get a million people, but wish i had got one they were for life but didnt have a spare million baht then
Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Michael *******
Would you have spent a million baht for the mere "right" to spend more of your money in Thailand? I never quite got the rationel behind the elite idea. In contrast, I much more respect the idea behind the LTR: attracting people to come spend their money in Thailand as a win-win. Having said that, of course a million baht for that original elite could be a well worh investment, if it came with a tax exemption like the LTR - but I believe it never came with that.Michael ********
@Frank-Steven **********
No nothing about tax and original promise of being allowed to own one rai of land was taken awayFrank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Michael *******
Sounds familiar. The LTR was supposed to come with that one rai promise, too. And it would make so much sense. Just one rai to build a private residence on. Would be easy to manage and control.Jeff *******
@Frank-Steven **********
Has that now been withdrawn?Frank-Steven ***********
ORIGINAL POSTER@Jeff ******
Land ownership is part of no visa - neither Elite, nor LTR.Reply to
Frank-Steven ***********
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