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Answered2 years ago

Can an Australian citizen lose their tax residency when living overseas, such as in Thailand?

David *********
asked Sep 25, 2024
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I contact ato - they said as a citizen you never lose tax residency. He asked 2 other ppl he works with who also confirmed this. He said only way to lose it would be picking up citizenship in another country.
Answer summary
The conversation discusses the complexities of maintaining tax residency for Australian citizens living abroad, particularly in Thailand. Participants clarify that citizenship does not directly equate to tax residency, and one can lose tax residency based on various factors such as time spent in Australia and economic ties to another country. The Australian Taxation Office (ATO) plays a crucial role in determining these statuses, with comments mentioning the need to understand the residency requirements fully to avoid unexpected tax liabilities.
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Kenneth *******
Kenneth *******
An Australian can become a non resident for tax There are disadvantages you should get advice on your situation believe me
Colin *******
Colin *******
@Kenneth ******
tell us what disadvantages you experienced, please.
Kenneth *******
Kenneth *******
@Colin ******
when an Australian becomes a non resident for tax his house on disposal becomes subject to capital gains tax and his superannuation on withdrawal is taxed at maximum rate Australian tax is nuanced so I can’t be more specific
Colin *******
Colin *******
@Kenneth ******
thanks. I concur with the CGT on assets - probably best to sale if substantial CG. I'm not convinced with super especially if over 60 as it is tax exempt. My understanding is that it stays that way. The complication is if you have funds over $3m and atract the proposed additional 15% tax on a personal liability, I this this would still be taxable.
Rafael *******
Rafael *******
Feels good to be a free non-american human vs. a tax-slave till death.
Martino *******
Martino *******
This is true only for some countries like United States! In Italy you just need to register as a "italian resident in other country" and tell them where you are resident. And puff! No tax to them anymore.
Duncan *******
Duncan *******
Not true - I'm Australian but Im not a tax resident of Aus and pay income tax in Thailand and have done so for years. And I should add, not having to ever deal with the ATO ever again is a blessing.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Duncan ******
that's just not true. The 183 day test is when ENTERING Australia to gain residency. It has nothing to do with losing it. Alas no questions were answered and nobody knows how you lost residency. I'll assume you didn't do the tax return to tick the box of being a resident so lost it.
Duncan *******
Duncan *******
@David ********
you pay tax where you live - simple as that. And if you live in Thailand over 180 days, you're a tax resident of Thailand. Instead of contacting the ATO, try contacting the Thai Revenue Department and ask them. And if you're bringing money into the Kingdom not declaring tax in Thailand, they are talking about targeting foreigners who dont.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Duncan ******
perfect u can solve all our disagreements - I'm going to assume you either didn't file tax returns / had nothing in aus eg bank accounts property work $ ? But if you had that and ticked the box on tax return as being a resident you would still be one today?
Jeremy ***********
Jeremy ***********
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Jeremy ***********
Jeremy ***********
answer the questions and it will tell you, pretty simple. you may still be liable for any income generated from Australian assets, shares, etc.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Jeremy **********
sigh no it comes back saying undecided or whatever and to contact the ato
Jeremy ***********
Jeremy ***********
@David ********
im a tax resident too at the moment in Australia, but if i move to thailand full time(or more than 6months a year), i am not returning to Australia to live (only to visit), thus i will have established social and economic ties with thailand, the test comes up with foreign resident for this.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Jeremy **********
I'm already a tax resident. The Q is me losing it
Jeremy ***********
Jeremy ***********
@David ********
interesting, do you stay in australia for more than 6 months? then you are a tax resident. Do you have social or economic ties to another country? this includes moving overseas and opening a bank account and setting up financially in Thailand too
Kristian ************
Kristian ************
Not if you choose to permanently migrate to another country.

********************************************************************************************************
Pete *******
Pete *******
ato.gov.au/residencyandtax
Baz *********
Baz *********
It's true you will always have Citizenship of Australia unless you declare you are now a citizen of another country..

However, Citizenship status, and Residency Status and Tax payer Status are not the same thing so just make sure you are asking the right question..

You can still be a citizen of Australia (hold an Australian passport) but no longer be a permanent resident..

And you can also declare yourself a non resident for tax purposes if you are working overseas and paying tax in a different country..

So you need to be careful what rules and conditions you are referring too.
Christopher *************
Christopher *************
@Baz ********
no but world wide taxation can only be carried out on your citizens not your residence
David *********
David *********
OP
@Baz ********
well I asked him like 10x if I lose my tax residency. Everytime his and others answer was no so long as citizen of aus
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
I hope they gave it to you 10x in writing, because those guys have a bad habit of misquoting! πŸ˜†
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
ok πŸ‘ I hope putting others down makes you feel better I assume you have many personal problems. Good luck
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Nope. That's your job. You've made a dozen posts on the same topic and still haven't got the answer you're looking, and you're that inept you don't have a capability to write to the tax office. Too busy playing games on your computer pretending you're "working" πŸ˜‚
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
yet you have no answer so know nothing πŸ‘ why are you here? To put others down and feel important?
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Why don't you shut up little man? Such a whizz but can't do simple internet research into tax residency and asks for advice from a Facebook group. πŸ˜‚
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
everybody knows πŸ₯‡.now can you shutup?
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Statistics on home ownership? What for? I own eight across the world netting me around AUD$400,000 per annum. They're the only statistics I'm interested in! πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
I read half. Don't know what you're talking about me entitled. Lookup statistics on home ownership get a clue dude you're on another planet and denying facts.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Yep. Old man, but you win the Grumpy, self-entitled, bad-tempered, "I'm the best" award. Go back through the thread and see who started throwing out the insults. I tried to give you advice but instead of accepting that advice and keeping it under your belt, you started throwing out the sarcasm. Work your ass off? Sitting in an internet cafe leeching the free WiFi because you've no money to buy your own, unable to invest in property because banks won't loan money to people who spend their days playing on their computers because they have zero employment history, and then attacking the generation which did really work hard, invest hard and party hard. Not jealous at all huh? And continually posting about tax residency, looking for the answer you want instead of accepting what actually is. Grow up little man, and you might get ahead in a real man's world πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
I've invested and work my ass off. Who are you talking to. If you don't think I work hard you are hating on alot of hard working people. Grumpy old man leave this group if you're here to put others down. I explained very clearly my points on you boomers stealing every cent of wealth. You just don't get it and that's ok - just say nothing
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
I will treat younger people working hard with respect, but not twats who sit in internet cafes playing on their computers all day without a thought to investing in their future the way the boomers did. Perhaps you need to grow up.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
you really aren't understanding it are you. Sigh I'm not going to try explain it further. Please grow up and treat younger people working hard with a little respect. Good day.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Wow! You are bitter aren't you? You're that good you can't get a well-paying job in Sydney, and worrying yourself sick about tax residency that you've made a dozen different posts in the last week. One of my daughters is buying her own place in Sydney. She's a lawyer. Obviously making more money than you even though you're in the Top 10%! I guess I make more than you just from my passive investments, and I just sit on my ass these days. Maybe if you stopped playing with your computer and got a real job you'd be better off. A bank won't even touch you for a loan. Us granddads have the wealth - that's why we have girlfriends here ten years younger than you πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
how's your kids? Do they have 5 houses yet without daddy help fyi I'm in top 10% income have been many years work remotely for a top managed service provider head of my field and been working my ass off for 15 years. I decided to go remote as there is no hope in Sydney. You grandad are very clueless.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
A few more than five now! Added one in the UK and one in Germany after I scored German citizenship. Perhaps if you stayed in Australia and worked your arse off like I did you might achieve something, instead of sitting in SE Asia playing on your computer worrying yourself stupid about tax residency.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
the next generation thanks you for destroying any economical change we have of retiring πŸ™ enjoy your 5 houses for $2 each and now 2 mill each
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
I'm not complaining! Works for me. I grabbed the opportunities and they paid off
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
cheers bro we all paying off your interest on debt nobody affording a house. More printing to reduce the debt more inflation wiping out our savings and increasing costs while you all get richer holding assets. Genius !
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Yep, the good old Boomers! The best generation in history. Was already paying off three houses by the time I was 28, after the first boom, sold one paid off the other two, and bought two more. By 35 I had five houses, three paid off. Bought shares for $1.50 when building societies became banks. Within two years each $1.50 share was worth $40 - and I bought thousands! Telstra was next, then BHP before the merger with Billiton. Wonderful times. Did 20 in the military, and went out with an 80% pension for life! The Golden Era! We'll never see it again, but I can live life exactly as I please, and one day my daughters will pick up a bonanza!
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
bro u lived easy mode years. Everyone in your decade is loaded up on $2 houses and cheap stocks.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
Yep. 23 years of experience doesn't go astray! Investment property portfolio and substantial sharemarket portfolio. I've got a drawer full of tax rulings! Next year I'll be on DTV so more fun in store!
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
ok thank you almighty wise Andy
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
It's not strange. Is it the truth? If you're going to be away in one location for a period of time you might lose Australian Tax Residency, and with it you lose the tax-free threshold, so every dollar you make in Australia will be taxed at 32c. However, from the answers given it appears the calculator can't give a correct answer, so you need to get a ruling. It's not that difficult
David *********
David *********
OP
David *********
David *********
OP
This is only way to get a result. But can't understand this - so long as I move somewhere else every 1-2 years I'll be ok?
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
So the answer's right there. If the ATO online calculator can't give you an answer, you think a Facebook group can? Put it in writing. Get the ruling, then you know where you are
David *********
David *********
OP
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
strangely if I say no here I pass and am a resident. I say yes it doesn't know
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
like I said....
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
It does give an option on leaving Australia. You're probably looking in the wrong place
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
in fact it's so shit it doesn't even give an option to be living overseas. Just an option to be returning to Australia. Seriously people deflect so easily to a bs argument that leads to nothing. Thinking they know everything.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
like I said tool doesn't work lol if it worked everyone would agree
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
I've no idea as I don't know your specific situation. Just use this tool on the ATO website

***************************************************************************************************
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
cool I'll just ask you - if I leave 11 months of the year will I keep my residency. Same job (remote)
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
You've obviously not had dealings with the ATO. Phone calls are a waste of time. What they've told you is wrong as it goes against what is in their official policies. If the first guy had to go ask someone else that doesn't exactly instil confidence does it? You write to them, and get it in writing otherwise it's not worth a pinch of shit. You're better off to use the residency tool on the ATO website. I give you 100% guarantee you need more than citizenship. I've held on to my tax residency year after year for all the benefits it brings to me, so I make sure I'm solid with it.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
exactly I'll call again in a few days see if I get same response
Baz *********
Baz *********
@David ********
You can declare yourself a non resident for tax purposes.. your choice

But you would only do that in a situation where you have overseas income and paying tax in another country and don't want that income also subject to Australian taxation as well.

That's my understanding anyway..
David *********
David *********
OP
@Baz ********
yeah I'd only have income in aus and would tick the box, so want to confirm there is no way I'd lose residency, no matter how long I'm overseas
Andy ************
Andy ************
Not true. Citizenship is only one factor in the equation. There's certain residential requirements and/or economic ties as well
Todd *********
Todd *********
@Andy ***********
for Americans, citizenship is the only factor. They are taxed regardless of residency.
Frank ********
Frank ********
@Todd ********
someone has to fund the IMF
Todd *********
Todd *********
@Frank *******
haha. Yes.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@Todd ********
I know the song - you can check out but you can never leave. Uncle Sam always wants his pound of flesh πŸ˜†
Todd *********
Todd *********
@Andy ***********
haha, yes - he sure does
Ron **********
Ron **********
@Brook *******
Australian Tax Office
Robert **********
Robert **********
@Andy ***********
.......it is true. I spent 15 years out of the country. I had to do tax returns for previous years when I returned, not all of them but quite a few. One would have to give up Australian citizenship or die before losing tax residency. Even death may result in tax obligations being passed onto family.
Andy ************
Andy ************
@Robert *********
You probably qualified under economic ties, but it's more than just citizenship. The ATO website has a tool for determining if you are tax resident. There's also a new formula being introduced within the next couple of years which apparently will make it easier to determine

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4
Frank ********
Frank ********
@David ********
double taxation treaty
Andy ************
Andy ************
@David ********
You can be dual tax resident, but the Aussie DTA means Australian Tax Residency prevails, so you can shit-can the Thai Taxation, provided you have a permanent residence in Australia
David *********
David *********
OP
@David ********
what's dta?
David *********
David *********
@David ********
no, tax residence of Thai and Aus is seperate and you can be both, as are many. Dual tax residency brings in overlay of DTA.
David *********
David *********
OP
@Andy ***********
if I'm a tax resident in another country does that effect my scenario ? After 180 days I'd be a tax resident in Thailand
Andy ************
Andy ************
@Matthew ******
More to it than that! CGT, Dividend imputation as well as tax residency status in other countries.
Matthew *******
Matthew *******
@Andy ***********
it’s all about the tax free threshold

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