How does double taxation work for expats in Thailand with DTV approval?

@Jim *******

So what you said previously only applies to Australians, and only those Australians living in Thailand. Not to anyone else living anywhere else, to your knowledge. I'd guess the OP is from the US, so you may have misled him. My precise point was simply that it isn't a choice.

@Tim ********

The DTAs generally are based on the OECD model as they are the overseers of tax evasion and avoidance of double taxation. You'll find most countries follow this model. This is the US DTA relating to residency

@Jim *******

Nope. You cannot generalise with DTA. US is very different to Australia, both very different to UK. I always advise people find the DTA for their country and read it carefully. Then they know about residency rules and double taxation provisions. It is pointless relying on Facebook groups because, like the comments in here, they are very misleading.

@Tim ********

As far as the residency test is concerned the Australian and US are very similar, although different terminology is used. However, both are very similar to the OECD model

@Frangipani ******

The burden is on you to prove you don't owe taxes. The way you prove you don't owe is by filing a Thai tax return.

@Frangipani ******

Tony Morgan is probably right. We know the law but we don't know how the Thai authorities will apply them in practice. The could for example, ask you to show that the cash you brought in matches the reduced balance of savings accounts, hemce it was pre-2024 money. Just one more point, again not yet clarified, is that pre-2024 money would not be tax assessable in Thailand *in 2024*. This was a point that seemed to be stressed in one document I read. Maybe this concession is for one year only.

@Frangipani ******

they wont track, you decide what money is assesable or non assesable. Any money you had before 2024 is non assesable regardless of when you bring it to Thailand in the future. (You need documentation showing your balance as of end of 2024). Anything added to those monies is assesable if you transfer it , its upto you to seperate it best you can. If you live off of post 2024 interest its assesable, if you live off of pre 2024 capital its not assesable. You have to be able to prove its pre 2024 money (or pre tax residency) if and when asked, not them. If you cant, then you would need a tax consultant to sort out the liabilty. For the post 2024 assesable earnings you just prove for the last tax year you have paid taxes already in that year as part of the tax return.

@Frangipani ******

In 2024, you collected capital gains in the US and remitted some or all of those earnings to Thailand. That was a taxable event - even though your initial investment was made years ago.

@David *********

I am not from the US and in my country we don’t ’collect capital gains’. We pay capital gains tax on investment returns. Why would that be a taxable event in Thailand when I have already paid tax in my home country. We have a DTA.

@Frangipani ******

"investment returns" = "capital gains". Your marginal rate on "investment returns" in your country may be lower than in Thailand. If so, you would have to make up the difference.

I am talking theory. In reality, most people won't file.

@Frangipani ******

Sorry Annie I didn't see this one. Investment returns, whether interest on deposits, income from properties (either rent or capital gains), or from an annuity are all income in the year they are credited to you, and potentially assessable for Thai income tax when you bring them in. You can draw on capital that was originally earned before 2024, which is not assessable for income tax this year. The next question should be "how will the Thai Revenue know which was income and which was capital?" Right now we don't know how they will do that. But it may be they rely on us making a declaration of the source, combined with the option of asking us for supporting documents

@Tim ********

this will never happen. Impractical

@Brandon *********

that is remitting money into Thailand, which is taxable.

@David *********

if it doesn’t go into their banks they won’t ever track it. That what matters in practice . Feel free to pay all that taxes you’d like . For 99% of folks, they ain’t paying taxes on ladyboy services . Then after all that there is crypto as a means if needed. No foreigner not getting paid into a Thai bank account would ever need to pay taxes in reality. Of course they can , but they would never need to and would never get in any trouble in thailand.

@Brandon *********

They won't accept that you live on fresh air, or they may start to worry you are working here. So you'll have to declare something and hope they believe it. Or they simply ask your government to kindly send your home country bank and card records

@Tim ********

after u get a visa , u don’t need to show anything. Do you have a visa ? Once ur here it’s over Johnny

@Brandon *********

I suspect enforcement will be slow at first. But if the government want the Revenue to collect more tax, it will instruct Revenue and Immigration to work together. First joint question will be "so, who has a visa and hasn't submitted a tax return?" 🤔

@Brandon *********

Unfortunately it won't be that easy, otherwise everyone will be doing it.

@Dan *******

everyone is , including me . 15 years on

@Brandon *********

I know, but that'll all change now that the WEF are going to be involved. They'll be tracking every transaction you make.

@Mac *****

because everyone in the Revenue Department where you live can read a US tax return.

@Mac *****

you say most people live of jobs with salary, and then they also live over 180 days in Thailand? Do you really think most foreigners are remote workers?

@Luit ****************

I never claimed that most foreigners living in Thailand are remote workers with salaried jobs, but many are—myself included. Especially Americans. I’m an engineer, and I can tell you that an overwhelming percentage of jobs in my field went fully remote after the pandemic. Others have some sort of earned income as well. The reason I keep bringing the US into the conversation is that the original poster is American. Different countries have different tax rules, laws, and job landscapes. However, I’d argue that most Americans living in Thailand permanently still earn income from the US, whether through investments, salaries, or other sources.

For us Americans, the tax situation can be complex. Even if you’re living and working in Thailand, you are still subject to US taxation on your worldwide income because the US is one of the few countries with citizenship-based taxation. Thailand will tax you on income earned within Thailand, but thanks to the US-Thailand tax treaty, you can avoid double taxation through mechanisms like the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE), foreign tax credits, or deductions for taxes paid to Thailand.

For example, if you earn a salary in Thailand, you would file and pay Thai taxes first. Then, when filing your US taxes, you could use the foreign tax credits to offset the taxes you already paid to Thailand. However, for passive income like capital gains, dividends, or interest, the rules can differ. The US will generally tax you on those, even if Thailand doesn’t. So, while Thailand will tax you on local income, the US can still tax you on the remainder, depending on the type and source of income.

@Mac *****

That is exactly what I meant, it can be complex, and it can also be difficult to prove you don't have to pay tax in Thailand.

I am from Netherlands, and I am jealous when you call US taxes high, I wish we had that rates.

So as long as I pay taxes I don't have to pay Thai taxes, but I don't want all the hassle to prove that.

For now I still have a remote job, and I divide my time with my Thai girlfriend between Netherlans and Thailand and a bit more in Netherlands to prevent Thai tax residency.

@Mac *****

You are misinformed. The point of the US-Thai DTA is to give US citizens living in Thailand a tax credit (taxes already paid in the US,), not to absolve them completely from paying Thai taxes.

@David *********

I’m misinformed? - Talk about irony. If you’re going to call someone out for being misinformed, at least back it up with details and evidence to prove your point. You’ve done none of that. Where did I ever claim that the DTA isn’t about tax credits? I’ve said repeatedly that the whole point of the DTA is to prevent double taxation—end of story.

If you’ve already paid your taxes in the US on income earned there, you won’t have to pay taxes in Thailand. Why? Because US-sourced income is taxed by the IRS, often at rates as high as 35-40%, leaving no additional tax liability in Thailand. And yes, this effectively absolves you from paying Thai taxes on that income.

What’s the actual difference between getting a tax credit and saying you don’t owe taxes in Thailand? There isn’t one—the result is exactly the same: you don’t pay taxes in Thailand on income that’s already been taxed in the US. It’s a simple concept. Honestly, people like you love to overcomplicate things and argue for no reason. At the end of the day, US citizens can’t be taxed twice on the same income. End of story.

@Mac *****

You do know that the US taxes long term capital gains at 15%, right? Retirees often live off capital gains.

Unfortunately, Thailand taxes capital gains as ordinary income, which could be higher than 15%.

So for the large number of US Farangs in Thailand who receive income from capital gains, the DTA gives them a credit, but they still would likely have a Thai tax liability.

@Mac *****

I do not know what is in the DTA between US and Thailand, and I am also not interested in it, but generally paying tax in one country, does not mean you don't have to pay taxes in the other. This solely depends on what is agreed in DTA.

In most cases it means effectively you pay the highest of the 2 countries, but the agreements can be different.

@Mac *****

little mac is having a meltdown because he can't handle the truth.

@Bullock ********

Classic response from a clueless troll who bought into the fear-mongering about being taxed in Thailand. You’ve clearly fallen for it and now you’re parroting nonsense to justify your ignorance—exactly what those spreading the fear rely on to profit off people like you.

@Mac *****

you got proved wrong several times in this post and now little mac is emotional and playing victim.

@Bullock ********

Welcome to my blocked list, asshole.

@Mac *****

exactly income source country want their pound of flesh first... 👍...

What isn't clear and sure will come down to interpretion I guess is tax free allowances

For example the first £12,570 of income in the UK is tax free about THB 540k..

If that was remitted as income to Thailand, under Thai tax rules only the first THB 150k is tax free,

making THB 390k in theory taxable in Thailand at about 10%

But not sure how they will deal with that... ❓😁

@Paul **********

That’s tricky. AFAIK, Thailand now taxes foreign income remitted in the same or any year. UK personal allowances don’t apply under Thai tax rules, so only the first THB 150k is tax-free, and the rest could be taxed progressively. I would double-check with a tax advisor for clarity.

@Mac *****

yeap that a hard one of how they would see or interpret that... 🤣... Time will tell I guess

@Mac *****

precisely and if you haven't paid your tax in say the US for what ever reason.. Thailand will want their pound of flesh as you a tax resident in multiple jurisdictions...

The simple premise is you will be paying tax somewhere 👍

I don't understand why people are struggling to understand this concept

@Paul **********

OP mentioned that he’s already paid all his income taxes in the US, which means Thailand cannot tax him. As I said before, since he’s earning his income in the US, he is required to pay taxes in the US. It’s not optional, and he cannot choose to pay those taxes in Thailand instead. That’s just how the system works.

@Mac *****

I have never said Thailand will tax him,

I have said he is Thai tax resident and thus the Thai tax rules apply to him..not with standing what a DTA says...

As I have said the premise of a DTA is not to be taxed on same money twice..

So if already taxed in US any income brought into Thailand, if he is Thai tax resident is declared as a tax credit on his Thai tax form (with proof of course)

@Bradley ********

Yep. Here they are:

@Jim *******

Most people here are discussing the letter of the law. But we are in a country where the police don't even enforce motorcycle helmet laws.

The real question is enforcement of Thai income tax, and I have no clue what happens when the million Farangs living in Thai villages (and who don't know anything about any of this) simply don't file.

@David *********

I'm one of them. I haven't filed in the 15 years I've been "tax resident" here, and absolutely zero intention to file this year. There won't be any enforcement. Tax assessment here is done on a self-assessment basis.

@Jim *******

I love it!

@Jim *******

exactly and thank you. People borrowing trouble. I see it all the time.

@Bradley ********

I actually stole it from someone else 😆

@Jim *******

there is honor among thieves. At least for us!

@Bradley ********

If the truth be known, the guy I stole it off probably stole it off someone else! How do you trace the origin of a meme? 😆👍

@Paul *******

He's a DTV holder. That's a tourist visa. He can't even legally open a bank account in Thailand. Stop spreading bs! 😂😂

@Paul **********

it depends on the amount the US taxes you as Thailand's tax schedule may be higher

Say you pay 20% in the US and Thailand is 30 % than you will be possibly be responsible for the difference of 10% to Thailand onto of the 20% to the US ...Just depends on how much you make

@John *********

absolutely 100% correct... I have stayed away from "top up" tax as it hasn't been addressed anywhere by the Thai tax man 👍

Can they do it in terms of law.. Yes.. Will they do it ❓ remains to be seen..

For Example the likes of Australia already do this to people who work overseas 👍

@Paul **********

He doesn't even have to do that. US tax residency is very difficult to lose. He won't be subject to taxes in Thailand

@Jim *******

that document says US citizens are Thai tax residents if they stay in Thailand more than 180 days.

@Jim *******

he is tax resident after 180 days... I don't know how many ways there are to tell you this... 👇

@Paul **********

But you're totally ignoring the DTA. A DTV holder is a tourist, therefore they have a home in another country which is where they pay taxes. I don't know how many ways there are to tell you this. 😂😂

@Jim *******

Nope. Thai tax law doesn't care if you are a tax resident in 10 other countries, you do the 179+ days in Thailand, you are a Thai tax resident.

@Jim *******

no I am not... you clearly don't understand what is being talked about.. Do you...❓

After 180 days in Thailand you are not a tourist..

You are tax resident 👇👇

It says so...whether you actually pay in Thailand depends on personal circumstances and DTAs..

But the fact remains you are a tax resident in Thailand irrespective of what a DTA says and as such will have to submit a Thai tax return detailing your income earned in Thailand or remitted to Thailand in a tax year

I don't know how many other ways I can explain this too you..

As you clearly don't understand do you

@Jim *******

doesn't change a thing..if he doesn't pay tax in the US for any reason and is tax resident in Thailand he will be liable firv taxes in Thailand

Stop with this nonsense now.. If you are 180 days in Thailand you are tax resident in Thailand...

@Paul **********

It's not as cut and dried as that. DTV holders can't even get bank accounts here, and you think they'll be taxed? Hmmmmmm

@Andy ***********

if you don't have a Thai bank account, how do you remit funds for living in Thailand? I guess you could send it via Western Union.

@David *********

Cash. Untraceable

@Andy ***********

it's not a case of think.. Just stating after 180 days in Thailand one is Tax resident that's all...

Pretty cut and dry actually

@Paul **********

Yes that's true, but it's not that simple. As I've explained in my response to your other post, DTAs play a huge part in whether expats are actually tax resident in Thailand. There are way too many variables to be able to categorically state someone is "liable" for taxation in Thailand.

@Andy ***********

DTAs have zero impact on determining tax residency status.

@David *********

DTAs actually provide the formula for determining tax residency! You need to get this notion out of your head that 180 days in Thailand is the be-and-end-all. It's nothing more than a starting point. DTAs blow it out of the water

@Andy ***********

er no it quite simple

180 days you are tax resident in Thailand

Fact 👇👇

A DTA doesn't change fact, what it changes is you won't be taxed twice on the same money that's all as detailed in the specfics of the DTA

a DTA does not exclude tax residency in another jurisdiction

Liabilty for tax in Thailand = assessable income 👇

1. 180 days in Thailand = tax residency

2.Remitted income as defined in Thai tax code ❓..yes

3. Has it been taxed already yes or no = yes refer to DTA.. Tax credit Thailand

4. Submit proof of tax being paid with Thai tax return... Receive credit

5. No tax paid on money remitted ❓refer to tax code for assessable income per Thai tax table

That's pretty much it.. Simply put

What isn't clear is the topic of "top up tax" where say tax paid out side of Thailand, is remitted to Thailand but tax already paid is lower that the Thai percentage on same money.. Will they require people to pay the difference between rates...❓

Same as places like Aussie currently do to their people who work overseas and who pay less tax than they would in Aussie..

.html