What are the costs and risks associated with using an agent for the Non-O visa extension in Thailand?

@Todd ********

I am not certain what you mean. Could you explain so that I can give you an answer?

@Nick ***********

if I recall (perhaps I’m wrong) it was your previous stance on this issue? I thought you were here long time on border bounces? If wrong, my apologies, mistaking you with someone else.

But to the actual question, you mentioned here that ‘it’s not worth the risk’. What is the risk you see here?

@Todd ********

no I had enough of border bounces a long time ago. I am now here on long term extension based on being over 50 obtained myself at my local immigration office. The risk of obtaining a Visa and/or extension through an agent who deposits the 0 fir you for a few hours is that, at some point, immigration might become aware that you did not continue to meet the requirements of your extension. That could mean that your extension was invalid from the time the money was withdrawn and you could be deemed to have been on overstay since then. That would be a big problem. The most likely time for that to happen is if you try to get the Visa extension yourself at some point. Knowing what I know now I would not do what i did but, instead, start again by leaving and getting a new non O and after depositing funds myself to get an extension. The other risks involved are that your local immigration will make life difficult for you because they do not like you having an agent obtained visa/extension like they did to me. Having been through the whole thing of agents, getting myself, 0 baht deposit and monthly payments I would strongly recommend going the DIY route with deposit and then monthly payments the second year. What some dont realise is that you can send the monthly payments back to home country and transfer back for the next month if your income does not allow £1500 every month. I would normally spend just over half that in Thailand every month or I might go wild and spend two monthly payments in one month. The whole thing is much more flexible and does not tie up 0 baht earning nothing with only half available to spend for half the year. The issue is getting payments marked as international or ftt. I use Wise and long term stay in Thailand as reason for transfer and also asked Wise to tag my Bangkok Bank account. Transfers to Krungthai and Krungsri did not show as international consistently causing hassle. Transfers to BB always have for 17 months.

It took me a long time to work out the above so I hope it will be useful to you and any others reading it.

@Nick ***********

I completely agree with your appraisal.. if a particular immigration office gets pressured (from above) to vet applications received from agents 'properly' at some point.. and discovers that every app a particular agent submits thereafter has to be rejected because the hitherto 'friendly IO' can no longer intervene and smooth out the wrinkles internally.. then said agent is going to be red flagged and they could be ordered to review all visa's previously issued via that agent to check for irregularities.. and if you used that same agent to cheat the system because you didn't fully meet the criteria.. eg. you didn't have the required funds available.. or you simply refused to use your own money because you didn't want to disturb a 'better investment' elsewhere.. then they will identify this and deduce that you knowingly abused the process.. the bent IO who received a sweetener to 'look the other way' could be removed from their position (or retire) and you then you lose their protection.. and if they are replaced by a jobsworth who can't be bribed you will be in the sh1t.. you won't be able to claim ignorance of the agents malfeasance as a defence either.. because you signed the forms and declared it to be a truthful disclosure of all material facts.. and if you are mid-term on that visa it could be cancelled and you could be deported on grounds of an intentional overstay.. and you have no way of knowing whether they will ever entertain another visa application from you.. most likely you'd get say a 5-year ban or something like that.. especially if they want to make an example of somebody to deter others from such misdemeanors.. but to make matters worse you could be prosecuted and fined heavily.. also likely if they find hundreds or even thousands of such cases and realise how much revenue could be raised that way.. i know everything I've stated here is hypothetical.. but that's exactly what 'risk' is.. it's the hypothetical downside of making a decision or taking a certain course of action.. and if you can't handle the worst possible outcome from that decision you probably shouldn't be making it.. i accept that agents can save you time.. eg. paying them to fast-track say, a certificate of residence, will make sense when time is of the essence.. or to get your overseas marriage certificate endorsed by your embassy, translated and rubber stamped by the MoFA etc.. but they are kosher services that do not involve blatant fraud.. I'm not suggesting all agents are bad.. but when it comes to visa's most of them make their money by using their relationships with IO's to get applications approved that would ordinarily fail upon closer scrutiny.. and that only happens because money changes hands.. from applicant to agent to IO.. if discovered the IO and the agent could both be looking for another job.. but the applicant (or visa holder) could be searching for another country to live in.. so tell me who is taking the brunt of the risk!

@Nick ***********

one of the subtleties to this is that the immigration officers are always aware when it’s an agent visa. And you legal stamp extension is valid as can be. There is no problem. I assume you were not using agents earlier but border bounces only?

My experience with local immigration was excellent. In fact he assisted me in having it relocated to Samui to support 90 day reporting. He was well aware had never been to northern Issan where the stamp was put on my passport.

I totally agree that if it is available to you, the best way is the 65,000 monthly deposit method. I have always used Wise also, and experienced the same issue with Krungsri when they suddenly downgraded to only 50k deposits. Had to switch the deposits to BKK bank.

Thanks for taking the time 🙏

@Todd ********

I think we are on the same page but you know as well as I do how easy it is to annoy an IO at some offices maybe by just wearing shorts. Once annoyed they will look for a way of doing you in. I have seen it happen. I'm glad you are on good terms with your office as am I.

@Stephen *******

don’t be so shy mate. I like your weird, passive aggressive lurker approach with the cute icon. But don’t be afraid to man up and state your piece. Don’t have to bring shame upon yourself for cowardice. Speak up man. It’s a free world

@Todd ********

🤣🤣🤣cowardice and Canadians go together we all know that my friend. Stop being a pest and enjoy your 7% interest I personally don’t care👍🤣

@Stephen *******

there you go.Feel better? Well in all fairness it's been a few decades since we had to come save your bacon. Looking forward to next time the Germans come knocking.

@Todd ********

I’m sure your 3 planes and a catapult will be useful

@Stephen *******

that is what i have just explained to him. See my rather long winded reply. The risk is there, however unlikely and I did not like the insecurity. Monthly payments is the way to go.

@Nick ***********

you won’t get him to admit that it is illegal however he wants to sugarcoat it mate. Ignore him he’ll soon get bored 👍

@Stephen *******

its a technicality but the stamp is legal unless you use a dodgy agent. The issue is that it is not from your home province and if the money was deposited for only a few hours you have not met the terms of the extension granted. Both of those facts COULD cause you big problems down the line ranging from deportation to a bit of inconvenience. I would rather risk neither. The fact I did and got away with it was down to ignorance and luck.

@Nick ***********

agree 100%

@Stephen *******

buddy, I feel for you. Stand in line to take a knee at govt offices. Didn’t get enough of that at home?😂😂

You are not ‘just interested’. You just not thinking. Here is what the outcome would be - absolutely nothing. As the stamp is 100% legal. Ur welcome.

But hey listen, as you obviously failed at retirement financial planning 101 and dont mind wasting the odd day standing in line, I could throw a couple of hundred baht cash your way to stand for me. Could also use a pool cleaner if you are that skint

@Todd ********

oh dear Todd you are confused. Why would I need a few bahts from you when I’ve banked 1.6 million baht and don’t need the little bit of interest it would make if invested at 7%.

Regarding the stamp being legal you may be correct but the terms of keeping it will have failed without funds , I know it’s difficult to understand but keep your head in the sand

A typical expat response when they are bending the rules to suit their inability to meet the requirements of resorting to insults and assumptions people have less funds than themselves. Have a great day

@Stephen *******

not one bit confused. And I value my time. I can even understand why saving the few Pennie’s is so important to you.

Why - because 1.6 million baht is basically beer money for the average retiree.

At least you grasp that I am correct about the legal stamp. Good job

@Todd ********

keep up the quality advice 😜😜😜

@Stephen *******

keep up the standing in line lol.

It’s pretty basic math for anyone with a small amount of financial knowledge. Not sure why some of you are so challenged with the basics.

@Tony *********

whether fraudulent or not is entirely debatable. And really, it’s the way most of the world works. Always has. Will it ever be prosecuted? No. Is there any risk? So minuscule we can barely see it. If the country wants to end the process, they will. And warnings given to all. Then you switch or move on. And it depends with the break up, but I went straight from agent to LTR. No issues at all. Never left the country

@Ray *******

western countries call it tax and tell us it makes for great nations. African, SE Asian, central and South Americans, Eastern Europeans… we call it corruption and pretend it makes them lesser. Whatever we call it, it comes down to $$.

If Thailand ever decides to close up agencies (highly unlikely) everyone will get far warning to change. And yes lol, lots of nice options out there also

@Todd ********

if I went down the legal route and put in B1.6 million in a Thai bank for my wife and I and after say 2 years Thailand is not for me , how easy is it to take the

B1.6 million out of Thailand

@Ray *******

that’s fair. The money is still there. It’s dead money for 2 years but not much loss to be worried about.

It’s a bit challenging to get THB out of the country. You will get beaten up a bit on fees and exchange rate

@Todd ********

16 years ago I closed a Mexican bank account that had around $50,000 USD.

It took almost ALL DAY to close the account.

@Paul ******

I bet. They are bureaucratically plodding and the banks can be painfully slow and the way too many copies to sign. But I never close accounts anywhere.

And Mexico permanent residency was a very easy process. And never need to renew. No reporting. No fees. No immigration visits. Just come and go as you please for life

@Todd ********

yep. I have a few friends that returned their U.S. passports🤣

Thailand isn't easy from an immigration perspective.

If I was working here it would be difficult to find the time.

@John ********

Mexico

@John *********

pensions, interest, rental income, investment capital gains and dividends. Same as everyone I suppose.

@Todd ********

but you must transfer that to Thailand so you should omit the no transfer fees and exchange rate losses. Surely you still incur these?

@John *********

sure, still stuck paying them. Nobody gets around. Optimally you take advantage of currency fluctuations and bring in more money when it’s financially advantageous to do so.

The limitation of the 800k is that it needs to sit in a current account in Thailand. Which, as you know offers barely 1%.

If comfortable investing here, bring the money over at advantageous rates and invest 2 years of expenses in the SET. Then you are earning baht.

And Canada (not sure about other nations) will direct deposit pensions in foreign accounts eliminating transfer fees and getting better exchange rates.

@Todd ********

yea, I just go with the 800k much less hassle, and savings rates in my UK bank are only 2.25% so the difference for me would barely cover agents fees. UK will direct deposit pensions too but I don't bring that into Thailand as uk pensions are liable to thai tax

@John *********

I beleive you can have your uk state pension paid into your Thai bank free from uk tax. You then only pay tax on it in Thailand. I might be wrong but I am almost sure I read that on the gov website when I claimed my pension. Un addition tgete us now talk of making money earned this year free of Thai tax when remitted to Thailand this year or next. I'm waiting for them to make up their minds. DTA with Thailand should only mean you pay tax once.

@Nick ***********

you can but it's only free of tax in the UK if you have no tax liability. The DTA means you pay the higher of Thai or UK tax, so you fill out your thai tax return and then you can claim a credit for tax already paid in the UK on the income you enter on your thai tax return. So if you only have a UK state pension of say £12k you won't pay any tax because its below the threshold. But you would likely have a tax liability in Thailand on that money. I'm aware of the rumours but we'll need to wait and see on that, if anything is going to change it won't be until later in the year

@John *********

I will not be in Thailand for more than 180 days this year so that, hopefully, proceeds from a property sale will not be taxable when remitted to Thailand. Am I right in thinking that the Thai tax year goes from January to December?

@Nick ***********

yep, the calendar year

@John *********

it’s not a hassle as all really, I just bring money over when it’s advantageous exchange wise. Not that the CAD has been great lol.

Yes- low interest rates in the UK. We are maybe 4% on 5 year GIC in Canada right now, not much better. Have to look elsewhere.

UK pensions are liable to Thai tax? Interesting. Ours are covered under the tax treaty. Canada does withholding tax and Thailand doesn’t tax them

@Todd ********

yep, only pensions earned while working for the government are exempt from thai tax, and lots of what you might think of as government are excluded. Even the state pension is excluded. Oh and our state pension gets frozen if we live in Thailand too.

@John *********

wow. That’s two hard hits. Did not realize this.

The annual indexing continues for all 🇨🇦 govt pensions regardless of where you live. No freeze.

@John *********

starling bank uk transfer around 3.8% interest from savings pot to current account every month and free to use overseas

@Mike *****

for sure. You can’t get anywhere near that in Thailand. Which is why you don’t bring the money to Thailand. I get 7% interest annually Mexico. Interest rates are high. And I believe it’s similar in Cambodia right now also. Where you can keep it in USD. Would only get 4.75% interest annually Canada and higher tax.