What are the tax obligations for expats living in Thailand for more than 180 days?

Anonymous participant Can they monitor ATM use ?? Likely not initially tho they have signed up to FATCA and other banking data sharing info.

For the 'men of straw' who can just leave at the drop of a hat then the risk is low, for those of us with lives, assets, houses, vehicles etc.. Then the risk of trying to avoid a couple of grand USD in tax annually v the potential for claims against those assets is a different set of choices.

But then theres plenty of other careful options.. You can gift your spouse 20 mil a year tax free, so then the day to day running of the household can be her task.. If you import a few 100k for visible personal spending the bill becomes very manageable. But everyone should have a plan.

@John *********

yes, agreed. any stocks sold would likely have some CG included and would need to be declared but the thai income tax would only be on the CG. so 10k held prior to 2024, sold for 15k in 2025 would mean tax on 5k, rather than the full 15k. happy with that.

@Sam ********

agree on the cash pre 2024 but you need to be able to prove this if asked Best if you have it in a separate account but at the very least have a snap shot of your account at the end of last year.

As to stocks, you can't separate out the stocks from the gains. The only way to send stocks without gains is to use stocks that you will sell at a loss.

@John *********

ok, so only if you have assesible income. sems a lot here think you must submit as soon as you are tax resident even with zero assesible income. id agree only if have something that is assesible. so sending pre 2024 cash or stock without gains would not be assesible and so no return needed.

@Deepak ******

that's not true. You're only required to file a tax return if you, as a single person, have 120k baht or more assessable income. You need a TIN if you have 60k baht or more assessable income

@Deepak ******

"Thailand expects" 😂😂😂. That ain't ever going to happen. I think you'll find most expats (retirees) won't be doing a thing, and in a year's time we'll be having this same conversation

@Sam ********

it's just the gain in Thailand too. The only difference is that it's taxed as income in Thailand.

@John *********

ok, are you confident with this one? would make a huge difference for many with a stock portfolio prior to 2024! tax free for as long as it lasts. i know CGT in the uk for example is just the gains, but obviously thailand does things differently.

@Sam ********

the total gain at the time you sell. The value of the stocks in 2023 is immaterial, it's the gain from the purchase price to the selling price.

@John *********

i know that capital gains post 2024 would be liable when remitted, but whar if say december 2023 i had stocks worth 10k. now they are 15k and i sell in the uk and remit all. is the 5k capital gains taxed or the full 15k?

@John *********

Absolutely. But can be done in small instalments. Anything under $10,000 in Australia is not considered "suspicious". Only a year ago I had a house I own re-tiled and paid cash $12,000 in order to save $1500. The "cash economy" will be with us for some years yet

@Steve *******

i was being facetious knowing that an atm won't allow you to withdraw that amount in one go

@John *********

Doubtful. Australia is not remotely interested in people withdrawing savings. $10,000 is not a considerable amount of money these days. Doesn't even buy you a good used car! 😂. Do that a couple of times a year, bring the cash to Thailand, it stays under the radar

@Steve *******

Australia might...

@John *********

You've missed the point. People on DTV merely bring the cash from their home country and have it exchanged in Thailand. You don't use a Thai ATM ffs. The amount they charge you're better off paying the tax! If I withdraw say $10,000 in Australia from an Australian ATM, which would the Thai Tax Office have any interest in that?

@Steve *******

you don't understand how CRS works. The financial institutions in your home country are required to report every transaction involving Thailand and Thai tax residents to the Thai authorities. So if you withdraw money at a Thai ATM as a tax resident, for example, it will be reported.

@John *********

Nothing to stop a person having a bank account, as long as there's no foreign money going into it. You really believe that every transaction you conduct in your home country is of interest to Thailand? Are you serious? Get off the weed!

@Steve *******

I don't understand how anyone could live here without a bank account for any length of time, not saying it can't be done but certainly inconvenient. Then you have the added issue of CRS reporting from your home country (or where you bank) to Thailand unless you're suggesting people just don't bank anywhere

@John *********

Not really. Cash processes don't tie money to a person. For example, I can go shopping and "use someone else's money". There's no paper trail which would indicate I had "remitted" the money to Thailand. It's the beauty of the DTV which I'm confident most retirees will eventually move on to

im able to bring in from an overseas savings account to the amount showing on december 2023 so think this part is clear

@Sam ********

sure.. but if you miscalculate your zero liability, or you're incorrect in understanding the language of the DTA or similar.. then its 100% of the correction because you didnt file.

But yeah this assesability v liability difference is odd as it should be so clear, even the most basic of definitions they dont want to give clear stances on.

ok, thanks. so no liability then 100% fine on 0. so if your sure of no liability then no issues i guess?

If its held as fiat assets in an account its savings.. If its an investment, pension, annuity, bond, debenture, etc its not.. The revenue code is very specific about pensions being income.

Your just being vague to give yourself wiggle room but disbursements from pensions, including Aus super are legally income at time of payout.

@Sefton *******

I'm talking about income prior to Jan 1st 2024, not current income . I'm laughing!

@Jim *******

pension disbursements are defined as current income NOT savings.

Thai Tax code Chapter 3 section 40.

@Sefton *******

Excellent! All covered! And confirmed by the Thailand Tax authorities. As we say in Australia "You little ripper!". No tax for me!

@Jim *******

anything in a pension pot is not 'savings' as you are classing it.. Pension disbursements are taxable income under the Thai tax code. 100% and crystal clear. Calling a super 'savings' is simply not legal reality.

"Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment."

@Sefton *******

It's nothing to do with savings! It's INCOME earned prior to Jan 1st 2024 which is exempt. You need to stop watching these YouTube videos! I stopped "working" in 2014, so no more "income" for me (not in my name anyway!) 😂😂😂

@Jim *******

If >180 days you are ALSO resident in Thailand..

As to the savings aspect theres a youtube discussion on this.. When the clarification that savings prior to jan 1 were exempted the determination was that was fiat / cash based savings.. Anything else stocks / shares / bonds / pensions / precious metals etc not.. As they would have capital appreciation.

Pension plans are not the form of savings that are exempted, as the clarity from the Australian tax team clearly state and as the Thai tax code also clearly indicates where it shows pensions as a form of income subject to taxation. This shows how pensions are not 'savings'.

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.4

For people whose pensions are taxed at source they generally have DTA protections but for tax free disbursements such as super or pensions untaxed based on non residence claims in the payout country that protection is not there.

@Sefton *******

"Country of residence" = Australia. Thank you for confirming! Nowhere in the tax code does it state "savings" must be in a bank account! Stop struggling and let it go! 😂

also as well as a more lawyer style bookeeping service one and that pascal guy whose done multiple youtbe interviews on tax..

and you know.. Australian tax office ministerial team..

And yes savings (thats cash in a bank not invested pensions) are exempted.. Investments are not.

@Sefton *******

Haha! Yeah yeah yeah. Whatever you say must be right - even though I know differently. Any savings amassed prior to Jan 1 this year are exempt tax. That's from the tax office itself, and you're trying to tell me that "chats" you've had with "experts" overrules government policy. Excuse me whilst I ROFL. Ask your buddy Carl "Gimme Your Money" Turner how he's going to manipulate that one! 😂😂😂

@Jim *******

Yes saved funds (not investments or pensions) owned prior to jan 1 can be brought in without liability.

Another thing we dont know is how they may treat comingled assets, I am keeping a seperate pot for exactly that reason.

The claim that Oz tax residency trumps Thai residency somehow is vague and not how dual claims work. Thailand has absolute right to impose its rules if you are here 180 days, Oz's 'sole taxation' claim may have first claim but untaxed funds (as super is) then can be taxed by the other as they are not being double taxed.

@Sefton *******

Yes that applies to people who are resident in Thailand, but using the formula in s.3 of the DTA and deeming Australian Tax Residency, there is zero tax payable

@Sefton *******

You simply bring in money which was earned before January 1st this year then it's exempt tax, the Thai tax department has already said that. So if you don't file a tax return you're going to fined 100% of what tax should have been paid. So 100% of zero in my calculations is actually zero! 🤣

But here it is from another this time australian source, for those tax resident over 180 days.

i suspect the first year is going to be a total sh!t show anyway..

I imported 5 mil last year, plenty to see me through this year and also have taxed at source income that I can bring jan 1 2025 to cover me much of next year. I should be good to 2026 tax year with care due for filing in 2027 with that plan.

@Sefton *******

And those experts in Australia I've spoken to say differently, so we'll see how it pans out won't we? 😂😂. I'm extremely confident that in a year's time I still will have paid zero in Thai tax, and all your grand claims of all these experts you have spoken to will amount to very little. I won't be filing a tax return for 2024 and I'll wait for the tax inspectors to come bashing my door down! 😂

@Andy ***********

as upton sinclair noted.. It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Your understanding of sole taxation rights is incorrect when you are a tax resident of another country, as already pointed out and even indicated in the very link you used to defend yourself.

Secondly your claiming that Australia has first claim (agreed) but doesnt tax it.. Which then gives Thailand the right to tax it on remittance to Thailand. A Double Taxation Agreement does not prevent SINGLE taxation by Thailand, it prevents you being charged taxation both sides.

Every single tax pro and lawyer I have spoken with on the topic here is in agreement. Not a single one has had another opinion when it comes to Oz super.

@Jim *******

But he said he brings in his pension every year.. making it taxable..

@Sefton *******

What's 100% of zero? 🤣

@Sefton *******

You miss the meaning of the word "taxable", and the pure simple fact that the DTA makes Australia (in my case) the sole taxation point. You place confidence in the Thai tax "experts", I place confidence in the official tax departments. Note the date! 😂😂

@Andy ***********

if you're here over 180 days that creates dual residency. What you still don't seem to get is Oz may have first claim, but when they don't claim that right (as per super) that doesn't mean another country cannot tax that same income. Double tax protection is to stop being taxed twice, not one country making it's own rules for tax residents.

And any untaxed pension income, which is super, remitted to Thailand then becomes Thai assessable income. 100%.

If you can claim it is savings not investment returns is not something I have checked but pension disbursement under super annuation brought here is Thai taxable and not filling that return can generate a 100% fine.

Getting an overseas lawyer to write a letter changes none of those facts.

There going to be a lot of shocked Aussies next year. Super is unprotected under the DTA unlike many other countries pensions taxed at source, precisely because it is not taxed.

@Sefton *******

Yes - dual tax residency. And then having a permanent home under (a) means Australia is the sole (as in ONLY) taxation point. I have no permanent home in Thailand.

@Sefton *******

The key word is "taxable" not "taxed" which is a big difference. As I've said, I can get certification from an Australian tax lawyer that my transfers are from savings accumulated prior to 2014 (when I retired) as well as this sole tax residency in Australia. I'm fine because I refused to entrench myself in Thailand. I have nothing in Thailand other than a bank account, a 12-month lease and a 12-month temporary extension of stay. In Australia I have five rental properties, a shared portfolio, a permanent home, superannuation fund, five bank accounts, four credit cards, driver's licence, electoral roll. That's a pretty big imbalance, and goes down to section 3 (c) of the DTA under economic ties. I think you'll find I am sitting pretty.

@Jim *******

The exact same outcome was spelled out by and a more lawyer based accounting company I chatted with. Also the exact same outcome applies under Oz DTA's to UK and EU with the same language and does mean tax due on super when residing there.

A certificate of residency isnt total cover when you have physical residency in other countries also, as the very link you use says "You can be a tax resident of more than one country at the same time. When you have dual tax residency, the relevant double tax agreement may determine your country of residence for tax treaty purposes and which country has taxing rights over certain classes of income, to prevent double taxation", for example I have tax residency in UK, Ireland and Thailand concurrently, some of those income streams remain taxed at source always, some dont but if not 'correctly' taxed at source it becomes Thai taxable on remittance. Also if you pay a lower tax in one country your tax credit only covers that amount and you must pay the step up to the higher band in the other.

You seem to have missunderstood the 'soley' clause in regards to residence and wish it to be true, while ignoring the second and 3rd clauses indicating it isnt. Every legal pro I have spoken to has said Oz super is now Thai taxable.

Finally the issue here is less the residence claim but more the fact that Oz doesnt tax this class of income while Thailand does. So it is not already taxed income and given the allowance or tax credit under DTA. The DOUBLE taxation agreement protects you against paying taxes TWICE, it does not mean you can avoid Thai income tax on pension income when you do not pay income tax on pension income in Oz. That isnt the scope of DTA's to deny a country the ability to tax if no other country has taxed it at source. That is very much in the name of DOUBLE taxation agreement protections.

@Sefton *******

I wouldn't be placing too much value on this guy's comments. In other groups people are already complaining that he charges way over the top and gives very ambiguous answers, but pushes continually for their business, and you can see why with what he charges for simple tasks. I've had advice from my tax lawyer in Australia that most countries around the world are not interested in pensions and superannuation because of the complex issues involved. It's not cut and dried. He's happy to certify that my superannuation contributions ceased several years ago, and that all funds are "savings" except for the interest component, in which case you transfer only from "savings" (accumulated well before 1 January 2024), and leave "interest" in Australia. Further, he advised getting a Certificate of Tax Residency from the Australian Tax Office, which certifies Australia as the sole taxation point for ALL worldwide income. This certificate can simply be presented to the Thailand Tax Office in lieu of a tax return

@Andy ***********

Not only him I have spoken to 3 tax specialist companies and all said the same.

Plus that is EXACTLY how it also works in UK or EU for Australians who have taken up residency there. They must pay local tax on their super.

You seem to be missing points b and c and only focusing on A anyone with 180 days a year here are going to fall into the habitual abode or dual home categories.

@Sefton *******

You really listen to this guy? Surely you cannot be so dumb not to see he's touting for business? The DTA clearly states "sole" - why hasn't the great Carl Turner addressed this in his "webinars" instead of continually ignoring this fact? Read section 3(a) of the DTA.and tell me which part of "solely of the contracting state....." you're not getting?

and broken down explaining the DTA text line by line. Thailand will have tax rights on Oz Super !!

Will they pursue it ?? Unknown ?? But you have a liability and obligation to file.

Here is is from ExpatTaxThailand I dont know how much clearer they can say it. Your just not correct.

Superannuation

Thailand considers pensions assessable income under Section 40 (1) of the Revenue Code. Under the DTA, only Australian government pensions are exempt from Thai taxation, meaning superannuation is taxable in Thailand. We understand that this is frustrating for pensioners, but some relief is available through claiming Thailand’s deductions and allowances to reduce the amount of tax due. This explanation and case study help clarify how this may affect Australian pensioners in Thailand.

%20considers%20pensions%20assessable%20income,superannuation%20is%20taxable%20in%20Thailand.

@Andy ***********

It may have first claim taxation rights on taxable incomes but income disbursed 'untaxed' then falls into the taxable rights of the other jurisdiction. Thats the whole point, they dont tax super at payout. Theres no other polite way to say it but I would feel you simply dont fully understand the language of the DTA as a layman or have had bad advice. I am a cross border payroll and income tax specialist, mostly UK EU but understanding and exploiting DTAs is what Ihave done for over 3 decades now.

This is very common for Oz pension recipients living in EU or UK, the payout isnt taxed in Australia but they now live in a place where that 'benefit' of no tax no longer applies and they pay UK or EU income tax on the super.

I know that many (all !!) of the major expat cross border tax specialists operating in Thailand that I have spoken with, have said that if they pursue it by the book Oz super is now clearly Thai taxable.

@Sefton *******

The DTA contains a formula for working out which residency prevails, in my case it's Australian. I don't know about others, as each individual has different circumstances. Australia has SOLE taxable rights. I have a certificate of tax residency from Australia, so it's confirmed by the ATO, it's not just me claiming it

@Andy ***********

They are untaxed at disbursement.. And if your Thai tax resident in any tax year you import those funds they are untaxed income from Oz.. Thailand specificially includes pensions as taxable income at time of receipt (and importation to Thailand).

You dont get to simply say I am an oz tax resident and dont pay it where I live, BOTH tax regimes can have competing claims. There are plenty of situations under DTAs where a source country might get the first layer (eg 0 - 15%) and the second country get the layer from the lower band to the higher band (in that case 15 - 35). Thats normal cross border tax stuff.

Simply believing 'I am an australian hence my tax is based on Aussie tax rules' is totally not how it works, BOTH regimes can have claims tho under DTAs it is usually a primary claim.

@Sefton *******

Depends if you keep Australian Tax Residency. In that case it's not taxable in Thailand. To say it's "untaxed" is not quite true. Super contributions are taxed at 15% when they are paid in, and the Super Fund is taxed, the taxation comes from members funds. It's just the final amount which goes to the recipient doesn't have to be declared if the recipient is over 60. Good reason to retain Australian Tax Residency. So many tax perks

@Andy ***********

They will need to update that form. do not quote me but I heard December for new form and new tax advice/directions. The global tax advisors who completed my tax return always have an early January deadline for our returns. I am guessing they will need to be quick learners this year. Having said all this I do not know why DTV's are getting the bed over it now. I wager the amount Thai Tax Resident for 2024 is absolutely tiny.

@Deepak ******

Can you indicate where you show non-assessable income?

@Greg *******

I've got one which I printed off the web. The one I have has no fields for non-assessable income and no fields for quoting DTAs.

@Andy ***********

I have a tax form I can scan and post. I doubt Deepak has seen a Thai Tax Return

@Deepak ******

Where does it state that on the tax return form? The tax return form only has spaces for "assessable income" which the pension is not, so there's actually nowhere to put it.

@Deepak ******

Simply saying yiur Double Taxation Agreement is tax exempt is not a solution either. There are 63 DTA's in place and the conditions are different. So exam0le in the USA Social Security in exempt. In other countries state pension may not be.

@Michael ******

You get a TAX ID from the tax department in your location. I am sure an accountant will do it for you. When I had a company here 25 years ago the lawyer who set up the company did it and when I was employed here in 2019 the Tax Accountants for the company did it. .html

@Greg *******

can you tell me where I should go to get advice and get tax number and tax declaration ? Lawyer or accountant ? thank you

@Jim **********

Anecdotal evidence from a small group but everyone I have spoke to said they are doing the same. A hell of a lot of them do not even know of the rule changes. Unless the government gives the tax department a lot of extra resource they are going to be busy with the real target of the rule change ie wealthy Thais. Until they link the tax system to Immigration I cannot see much change.

@Greg *******

agree, only way affects us is thru visa. I'm carrying on regardless until then.

@Sam ********

Many live on a lot less. It's surprising how many retirees need to use visa agents because they can't meet the 65k per month requirement! 😂

ok, i guess if you can live on 70k and take a few trips it is ok, but many live on a lot more, and you don't need to take the suitcase comment so literally ;)

@Sam ********

Those DTV'ers who travel a lot, as I do, 3-4 overseas trips a year it's no big deal. I need around 70k a month to live on in Thailand over eight months is about 15,000 €. Four times a year, means bringing in 3800 € each time. You seriously believe you need a suitcase to bring that in? Excuse me whilst I ROFL at your "stupid comment of the day"! Oh, and it's "their" not "there"! 😂😂😂😂